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Which Brake Cooling Kit?

 
Old 11-20-2007, 12:48 PM
  #16  
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Any new opinions on this 4 year old thread?
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Old 11-20-2007, 03:31 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by donoman View Post
Any new opinions on this 4 year old thread?
Well, since you asked ...

I think the stock brakes are great. Track novices tend to over brake and immediately conclude that the 964 binders are inadequate, need cooling, whatever ... Why is that? I believe it's because most begin their journey towards faster lap times by braking too hard. I mean, that's the fastest way around the track isn't it?

Then they spend a great deal of time trying to drive the perfect line, hit their marks and maximize exit speeds (which actually IS very important). But only after they've mastered these skills do they realize that a few more tenths could be found in each corner by improving entry speeds ... smoothly.

So it's not until they focus on this last bit do they realize that slamming on the brakes won't work. They need to work on some of the finer points of their game--trail braking, weight transfer and maximizing traction--to get into the corner quicker which also means they need to ease up on their braking. But by then, they've already got Big Reds and are out $5,000.

My advice is to get some DOT4 brake fluid, PFC97's and stay out of the ABS. If you do that, your brakes will last a lot longer at the track.

Last edited by joey bagadonuts; 11-20-2007 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 11-20-2007, 03:49 PM
  #18  
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heh heh, cool.
I was super surprised to see how fast my brakes faded at the last trackday. None of my cars have done that (M3, Miata). Could just be that I'm driving a little harder now than I had ***** to when I started DE's.
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:01 PM
  #19  
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So were you riding the ABS into the corners?

And if you're using street tires, you'll need to watch out for overheating. It will be characterized by a distinctly greasy feeling.

Remember, every time you improve one part of the system, you push the limits of the others.
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:03 PM
  #20  
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I made some 964 brake ducts that are extended and taper down to a 2.5" hose size, they allow you to slide the hose on and secure it with a hose clamp, rivet, etc. Most of the ducts out there are cut off really short and don't taper down to a round section, so if you want to use them as they are intended you have to fabricate the rest of the duct.

I've got a set for sale over on Pelican:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=372882

this is what they look like:
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:06 PM
  #21  
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Most of the ducts you can buy look like the one below, I got tired of having to fabricate the rest of the duct out of aluminum so I made some better ones.
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Old 11-21-2007, 11:25 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by joey bagadonuts View Post
Well, since you asked ...

I think the stock brakes are great. Track novices tend to over brake and immediately conclude that the 964 binders are inadequate, need cooling, whatever ... Why is that? I believe it's because most begin their journey towards faster lap times by braking too hard. I mean, that's the fastest way around the track isn't it?

Then they spend a great deal of time trying to drive the perfect line, hit their marks and maximize exit speeds (which actually IS very important). But only after they've mastered these skills do they realize that a few more tenths could be found in each corner by improving entry speeds ... smoothly.

So it's not until they focus on this last bit do they realize that slamming on the brakes won't work. They need to work on some of the finer points of their game--trail braking, weight transfer and maximizing traction--to get into the corner quicker which also means they need to ease up on their braking. But by then, they've already got Big Reds and are out $5,000.

My advice is to get some DOT4 brake fluid, PFC97's and stay out of the ABS. If you do that, your brakes will last a lot longer at the track.
Was waiting for this post. Never had an issue racing the RSA, nor track duty in the 400lb heavier '92 C4. I've always preferred Pagids of various colors. Works fine, even at Laguna. At least until you run the fronts down to the backing plates. Oops! (No damage, just an excursion and thankfully not a tow out of through the T2 kitty litter.)
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:56 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by joey bagadonuts View Post
Well, since you asked ...

I think the stock brakes are great. Track novices tend to over brake and immediately conclude that the 964 binders are inadequate, need cooling, whatever ... Why is that? I believe it's because most begin their journey towards faster lap times by braking too hard. I mean, that's the fastest way around the track isn't it?

Then they spend a great deal of time trying to drive the perfect line, hit their marks and maximize exit speeds (which actually IS very important). But only after they've mastered these skills do they realize that a few more tenths could be found in each corner by improving entry speeds ... smoothly.

So it's not until they focus on this last bit do they realize that slamming on the brakes won't work. They need to work on some of the finer points of their game--trail braking, weight transfer and maximizing traction--to get into the corner quicker which also means they need to ease up on their braking. But by then, they've already got Big Reds and are out $5,000.

My advice is to get some DOT4 brake fluid, PFC97's and stay out of the ABS. If you do that, your brakes will last a lot longer at the track.
The stock brakes do work fine but the big reds are superior in multiple ways especially if you have a dual driver car. Less chance of warped rotors pads last much longer and never need to bleed your fluid all season. I upgraded my C2 with big red fronts and 993 rears total cost installed with SS lines and fluid was under $1200.00. with used parts and new factory rotors found on Ebay.
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:26 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by race911 View Post
At least until you run the fronts down to the backing plates.
Good reminder, Ken. I keep a close watch on my pads and replace them once they're down to about 1/3 of their original thickness.

Anthony, I don't disagree with anything you're saying--yes, stock brakes are good, big brakes are better and $5,000 is probably a high estimate. But my point is that big brakes are not necessary for track cars nor is extra cooling. In my experience, the drivers who typically experience brake failure are novices who are either using the wrong fluid, compromising on pad choice or simply over working their brakes.

And not to be a wise guy but I think the fact that you can run an entire season without replacing your fluid once suggests that you probably have more brakes than you actually need. Right?
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:57 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by joey bagadonuts View Post
Good reminder, Ken. I keep a close watch on my pads and replace them once they're down to about 1/3 of their original thickness.

Anthony, I don't disagree with anything you're saying--yes, stock brakes are good, big brakes are better and $5,000 is probably a high estimate. But my point is that big brakes are not necessary for track cars nor is extra cooling. In my experience, the drivers who typically experience brake failure are novices who are either using the wrong fluid, compromising on pad choice or simply over working their brakes.

And not to be a wise guy but I think the fact that you can run an entire season without replacing your fluid once suggests that you probably have more brakes than you actually need. Right?
Right, I like excess. It is convenient to not have to worry although they never go unchecked. I agree the C2 91 on up has adequate brakes although I have friends who tend to warp their rotors and go through pads in 2 events. I have picked up several big red sets complete minus adapters for under $1200 so I think if I can do it so can others. I agree if it gets to be more than $1500 to upgrade it isn't necessary but for the price i have paid it was worth it. besides I have 3 cars with the same brakes so spare parts are never an issue.

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Old 11-21-2007, 04:02 PM
  #26  
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Big brakes are not necessary for longevity at DEs, using the proper pads, some cooling, and a little moderation, but they are great for racing, and it's fun to outbrake GT3s.
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Old 11-21-2007, 04:16 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by joey bagadonuts View Post
So were you riding the ABS into the corners?

And if you're using street tires, you'll need to watch out for overheating. It will be characterized by a distinctly greasy feeling.

Remember, every time you improve one part of the system, you push the limits of the others.
Wasn't riding the ABS into the corners but it was the first time on R compound RA1's. They aren't shaven. Do they count as street tires?

I am guessing the fact that I didn't have special fluid, wasn't using special pads ... these things got the best of me.

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Old 11-21-2007, 09:02 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by donoman View Post
They aren't shaven. Do they count as street tires?
No, the RA-1's are still an R compound or competition tire, even with full tread. The distinction has more to do with it having stiffer sidewalls and grippier rubber than a street tire.
Originally Posted by donoman View Post
I am guessing the fact that I didn't have special fluid, wasn't using special pads ... these things got the best of me.
I'd tend to agree. Please make sure you get that sorted before your next outing. Stopping the car should be your #1 concern when it comes to safety and prep--that means true race pads and DOT4 fluid. Okay?
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Old 11-21-2007, 09:22 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman View Post
... and it's fun to outbrake GT3s.
I can only imagine.
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Old 11-22-2007, 03:36 AM
  #30  
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haha, gotcha ... thanks joey b
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