Navaros911

Guys,

Need some advice here on what to do next.

My car has developed some oil leaks and my mechanic is suggesting an engine out rebuild. So he asked me to have the under side of the engine cleaned and check where the leaks are developing from. A week later I took these engine pics (ignore the one with the bumper off - that one was taken before cleaning the underside of the engine).

The history on the car is as follows: purchased in Dec 1993, it's a C4 with no mods and no cat. Oil it's running on right now is a 50/50 mix of Brad Penn 20w50 and 0w30. She had an engine rebuild at 93k km in 2005 and I can see the piston rings along with other parts were replaced. This was at the official Porsche dealer. The car now has 127k km on her.

This I find very strange... why would a car need a rebuild some 30k km later?

What I'm planning to do is: perform a compression test myself (the tester is on its way) and "read" the spark plugs.

Below you can see one of the oil leaks that is coming from the hard pipe that connects to the oil filter housing (or whatever that part is called).


Below is the right side of the case. The good thing is that the case does not leak. There is a darker spot towards the front of the car on the right part of the case that may be the indication of a leak in that vicinity. Circled in red.


Now here it gets interesting... left side of the car, picture taken from back to front underneath the car's rear bumper. Below is a clear area that is very wet (circled). It seems to come from the chain tensioner covers or so (where they bolt front to back)... or where they bolt to the case (side to side nuts). You can also see some oil coming from the exhaust ports in the background as well. Not sure if it's from there or higher up. I presume the latter.


This is the right side of the case... where there is barely an oil to discover. But in the back circled in red, there seems to be a bit of a leak.


Below is the last one and the worst one. Seems like there are multiple leaks. Taken from the left side of the engine... not sure exactly where all that oils is coming from.


Please give me some advice gentlemen... I don't want my car to catch on fire because there is oil all over the place, but then again if these leaks are not too serious I don't want to head into a rebuild when there is no real reason to.

Thanks in advance!

time666

Picture no3 with the oil looks exactly like mine, and it was just the cam chain cover gasket, and bolt o ring washers. I did both sides while they were in there, but i read that the LHS cover is not too bad to change, although the RHS is supossed to be a bit more of a challenge. I found some threads on this detailing the proceedure. Cant help with the others.

Navaros911

time666 - I think it is.

My chain tensioner was replaced two years ago and I wonder if a new seal was used. I don't remember one being on the bill... perhaps there is a way of replacing the tensioner without taking the cover off, it looks like that's possible.

Navaros911

Found this thread: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...es-thread.html

The condition of my engine looks very similar to what I could find there. Chain tensioner cover, oil return pipe (on my car both ends may be leaking) and power steering fluid.

The compression test and the spark plugs will tell me more I hope.

-nick

#1 There are copper ring gaskets on the pipe connections to the oil filter housing, and also a smaller copper gasket for the bolt on the housing (the one you're supposed to take out to make the oil drain better). Quite certain those $0.20 gaskets are the source of that leak.

#3 & #5 I have the *exact* same leaks. Did you come take photos of my engine?

I don't think that any of these are anything close to requiring a rebuild. But I'm sure the experts here can tell you for sure.

Mr.Alex

Chain tensioner and oil return line is also weeping on mine, I have little experience in this as I'm fairly new to the Porsche life, but the dark spot on the case would scare me if I saw it on my car.

John McM

I've owned a leaking Turbo 3.6 for 12 years. One leak is at the Turbo Oil pump gasket and I will get that fixed as it coats the shock absorber. Any other leaks would only get touched if I had serious leaks, because I never expect my engine to be dry.

If you have the money and hate any leaks, then get it done. If not, then live with it, is my advice.

race911

Pretty much. No way does the engine have to come apart, unless there was defective sealing the first go-round.

Know how many POS "Exxon Valdez" wannabe 2.7L cars I had coming and going out of my shops in the '80s and '90s? Probably 75% of them. 100% oil covered heat exchangers were the norm. Nothing ever caught on fire. Well, maybe from the plastic fuel lines on the early CIS cars, but that's nothing to worry about with a 964.

Alan G.

I am not an expert, although I have spent way too much time chasing oil leaks on my 964s. Unless something went bad from the rebuild, I would fix what I could, and do the rest on an engine drop when the valves need to be adjusted.

I have learned that oil, paper towels, are cheaper than some of my oil leak *projects*! Keep driving!

njansenv

I just fixed a leak on the "oil bridge" at the top rear corner on the drivers side. 3 o-rings, and it's dry....but it sure made a mess while it was leaking. It was only a 1 1/2 hr job, from the top. Access is a little tight, but nothing crazy.

The rear timing cover is trickier - the muffler and cat need to be removed. Not rocket science, but a little bit more time consuming.

Navaros911

After reading the thread on PP forum, I am a bit more at ease.

The car needs to have the valves done. So I'll ask for all of it to be sorted in one go. All the seals and hardware bits and pieces I'll get anyway I prefer all parts being available since delivery times can be significant here.

A bit of leaking is no big deal. I also forgot to mention this is my daily car. So I'm not so bothered with a drop on the heat exchangers since it's not much every time I drive her.

I'll look at the seals for the pipe rather than replace the whole thing. The power steering may be another point that's leaking.

I'll see if I can get some better shots this week.

Any other advice: keep it coming.

Thanks for everything this far. I will read it all when I'm in front of a PC.

sml

based on what?

Johnny G Pipe

(I guess he just means its due its periodic valve adjustment)

So, this is a whole 'while youre in there' question. Leaks are common in 964's even with rebuilds. Many need their engines to bone dry at all costs, whereas others will only act when it gets out of hand - typical reasons might be smoke wafting up through the spoiler when stationary or an oil film on the rear deck. If you are in this category:

1. ID what's leaking (might be pretty hard as oil blows around everywhere, and also can end up a long way from where it started by tracking along things).

2. If it can be fixed with engine in, youre good!

3. If it can't, well then time for engine out and opportunity for a) reseal, or b) top end rebuild, or c) full rebuild

Healthy engine with good compression or recent rebuild by competent people - option a)

Older engine, smoke, excessive oil use, bad compression - b)

>200k, knocking or other signs of major wear or trouble, have the finance - c)

In my experience of this forum, many people are 'encouraged' by their shop to go for b or c, when all they need is a)...

Of course there are a load of other variables.. need for clutch, tinware, or needing an excuse to fit a 3.8 motec!

I had both the issues in the top line of this post with my leaks, but found out a relatively unknown way of significantly reducing some of the leaks: keep the oil level down. Just registering on the gauge when warm seems to be a whole lot better than all the way to the top, and there doesnt seem to be any worry that running it at the low end results in any starvation issues....

Would be interested to hear what you run your oil level at..

koenig_roland

Well,
i did some fixing job during the last four years. They costs me some money too, took time and wheren`t realy successfull at least.
Last autum, i had a serious oil-leak on the foot of one cylinder. I grabbed the chance, closed my eyes (for financial reasons) and ordered a full rebuild with slightly modifications (cams...)...
I would rebuild the engine, or complete reseal it, if you want to hold the car some times longer...

springer3

A full rebuild after 30,000 miles seems like swatting a gnat with a hammer. There are plenty of threads on engine-in reseal options, and engine-out reseal.

The shop that did the rebuild should stand behind their work. You are barely out of the break-in period, and there are already oil leaks?