89 C4 suspected rubber clutch failure
07-08-2012, 12:08 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
89 C4 suspected rubber clutch failure
Hi folks, I'm after some help with the diagnosis and replacement part selection.
Towards the end of the track day yesterday I started to notice a significant clunk and a lot of rattling as the transmission loaded and unloaded, especially at low speed.
There is no noise in gear (other than the coffee grinder its always had) and no problem engaging gears.
All seems consistent with failure of the rubber clutch centre which is peculiar to the 89 C4.
Replacements seem to be extortionately expensive with most uk suppliers offering only the full kit with a new rubber centered clutch disc, pressure plate , bearing etc. for £800+
An alternative offered by pelican is a sachs spring centre disc using a 75-77 3.0 turbo part number, and a similar one from vertex auto which comes in at a mere $198 dollars (which will end up as $300 after shipping and tax i guess) It seems an updated guide tube may be needed when moving to the spring clutch but its not 100% clear.
Well thats where I am upto, any input on the original diagnosis or parts selection would be great.
Towards the end of the track day yesterday I started to notice a significant clunk and a lot of rattling as the transmission loaded and unloaded, especially at low speed.
There is no noise in gear (other than the coffee grinder its always had) and no problem engaging gears.
All seems consistent with failure of the rubber clutch centre which is peculiar to the 89 C4.
Replacements seem to be extortionately expensive with most uk suppliers offering only the full kit with a new rubber centered clutch disc, pressure plate , bearing etc. for £800+
An alternative offered by pelican is a sachs spring centre disc using a 75-77 3.0 turbo part number, and a similar one from vertex auto which comes in at a mere $198 dollars (which will end up as $300 after shipping and tax i guess) It seems an updated guide tube may be needed when moving to the spring clutch but its not 100% clear.
Well thats where I am upto, any input on the original diagnosis or parts selection would be great.
07-08-2012, 12:14 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
I appreciate its possibly just as pricy or more so as a full kit but is a LWF/Clutch kit an option?
And if you need any help with the engine drop I'd be more than happy to assist
And if you need any help with the engine drop I'd be more than happy to assist
07-08-2012, 12:21 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Interestingly the 89 stock solid flywheel itself is as light as the "lightweight" one but the cover is little heavier, so the 89 has a "midweight" setup and the bell housing is different in later cars so the full rs/lwf kits dont work.
Thanks for the offer, more hands definitely makes the prospect of an engine drop sound less daunting.
Thanks for the offer, more hands definitely makes the prospect of an engine drop sound less daunting.
Last edited by alexjc4; 07-12-2012 at 06:09 AM.
07-09-2012, 02:27 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Right some googling and phoning around has taken place:
The factory specified parts for a 3 piece kit (disc,cover/pressure plate,bearing) are coming out at £1050 (or around $1500) including tax from most suppliers. It's not clear but it is likely this will be for a rubber center replacement. The cheapest for this stock porsche kit I can find is type911 @ £804 all inclusive.
Pelican, helpful as ever, offer some more details on what will work, and suggest a spring center replacement, in the shape of kit "950-116-911-01 3-Piece Clutch Kit with Spring-Center Disc - 911 Carrera 4 (1989)" at $921 which requires a new guide tube pn 950-116-813-06 at ~$70. This is the same kit as the one they offer for the 87-89 G50 Carrera 3.2 as a replacement for the rubber clutch.
Type911 offer this same kit in the shape of "911 1987-89 G50 Clutch Kit 95011691101 3 piece OEM Kit for G50 gearboxes" for £580, add tax and the needed guide tube = £758
Porscheshop offer something that looks the same (I'd have to check the part no with them) for £499, add tax and the guide tube = £560 all in
That's starting to look sensible but I'm seriously tempted to reuse my existing throwout/release bearing and pressure place as there wasn't noise from the bearing or any slip from the clutch, plus I'm dropping the engine myself so the WIIT saving of doing these "just in case" is no biggie.
The cheapest source of discs I can find either side of the atlantic is the vertexauto power friction disc pn 5312:
http://www.vertexauto.com/ShowItem/6...pplicationsDiv
This is a spring centered clutch. I've emailed to check if it is a direct fit.
$198 dollars + $73 shipping + 20% tax = ~£210 which is nice
Tho I may need to add £62 for the updated guide tube to that.
The "man maths" goes like this:
a)take broken car to OPC or Indy and get hit up for £1000 in parts (at least) and £600+ in labour.
or
b)spend £210 in parts + £100 in oil and a sweaty weekend in the garage.
The factory specified parts for a 3 piece kit (disc,cover/pressure plate,bearing) are coming out at £1050 (or around $1500) including tax from most suppliers. It's not clear but it is likely this will be for a rubber center replacement. The cheapest for this stock porsche kit I can find is type911 @ £804 all inclusive.
Pelican, helpful as ever, offer some more details on what will work, and suggest a spring center replacement, in the shape of kit "950-116-911-01 3-Piece Clutch Kit with Spring-Center Disc - 911 Carrera 4 (1989)" at $921 which requires a new guide tube pn 950-116-813-06 at ~$70. This is the same kit as the one they offer for the 87-89 G50 Carrera 3.2 as a replacement for the rubber clutch.
Type911 offer this same kit in the shape of "911 1987-89 G50 Clutch Kit 95011691101 3 piece OEM Kit for G50 gearboxes" for £580, add tax and the needed guide tube = £758
Porscheshop offer something that looks the same (I'd have to check the part no with them) for £499, add tax and the guide tube = £560 all in
That's starting to look sensible but I'm seriously tempted to reuse my existing throwout/release bearing and pressure place as there wasn't noise from the bearing or any slip from the clutch, plus I'm dropping the engine myself so the WIIT saving of doing these "just in case" is no biggie.
The cheapest source of discs I can find either side of the atlantic is the vertexauto power friction disc pn 5312:
http://www.vertexauto.com/ShowItem/6...pplicationsDiv
This is a spring centered clutch. I've emailed to check if it is a direct fit.
$198 dollars + $73 shipping + 20% tax = ~£210 which is nice
Tho I may need to add £62 for the updated guide tube to that.
The "man maths" goes like this:
a)take broken car to OPC or Indy and get hit up for £1000 in parts (at least) and £600+ in labour.
or
b)spend £210 in parts + £100 in oil and a sweaty weekend in the garage.
07-10-2012, 03:10 AM
#6
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FWIW, i used the vertex disc in my previous 89 and had no issues with it. Definitely a value priced alternative.
I do recall there was a thread on here quite a while ago that had the weights of the three different complete setups (disc plus pressure plate plus flywheel). The three setups being 89, 90+, and LWF.
FWIW, when i pulled the disc off the car at 220K it still had a fair amount of material on it, but it was saturated in transmission fluid from the shot input seal which eliminated any sort of friction. As it was a "while you're in there" situation and over 220K I replaced pretty much everything from the RMS to the input shaft seal except i only had the flywheel ground down (possibly resurfaced? can't recall that much) rather than replaced.
I do recall there was a thread on here quite a while ago that had the weights of the three different complete setups (disc plus pressure plate plus flywheel). The three setups being 89, 90+, and LWF.
FWIW, when i pulled the disc off the car at 220K it still had a fair amount of material on it, but it was saturated in transmission fluid from the shot input seal which eliminated any sort of friction. As it was a "while you're in there" situation and over 220K I replaced pretty much everything from the RMS to the input shaft seal except i only had the flywheel ground down (possibly resurfaced? can't recall that much) rather than replaced.
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07-10-2012, 04:41 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thats great info thanks. I've only got 126k on the clock so I think I'll renew based on condition, I guess I can also make the call after I drop the engine - it may turn out to be such a sweat that I never want to do it again!
I don't suppose you remember if you used the updated guide tube or the original part no, do you?
Looks like the stock release bearing and cover plate will be compatible with the vertex disc, is that right?
I don't suppose you remember if you used the updated guide tube or the original part no, do you?
Looks like the stock release bearing and cover plate will be compatible with the vertex disc, is that right?
Last edited by alexjc4; 07-10-2012 at 07:52 AM.
07-10-2012, 05:57 AM
#9
It might not be the rubber clutch thats failed so try to to use it until you know for sure - this is what happened to mine:
Could also be a failed cross shaft or heaven forbid broken ears off the case.
Unfortunately some of the new/old parts aren't interchangeable so I'd suggest buying nothing until you have it in bits then you will know for sure whats needed and what works with what.
Also be aware there will be some other bits that will need replacing while you have it apart like cross shaft(or at least bearings)/fork/seals etc etc.
Could also be a failed cross shaft or heaven forbid broken ears off the case.
Unfortunately some of the new/old parts aren't interchangeable so I'd suggest buying nothing until you have it in bits then you will know for sure whats needed and what works with what.
Also be aware there will be some other bits that will need replacing while you have it apart like cross shaft(or at least bearings)/fork/seals etc etc.
07-11-2012, 12:33 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Just had confirmation from Vertex that the updated guide tube 950-116-813-06 is needed with their spring centred clutch disc just like the sachs one.
07-11-2012, 04:20 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
More research in PET, trying to confirm that my current release bearing and cover plate (assuming they pass muster) will work with the updated friction disc and guide tube.
factory 89 c4 964 (rubber clutch)
release bearing 950 116 080 04 superceded to 950 116 080 08
guide tube 950 116 813 06
pressure plate 950 116 023 03
drive plate 950 116 012 52
factory 3.2 G50 (rubber clutch)
release bearing 950 116 080 01 superceded to 950 116 080 02 (or 03)
guide tube 950 116 813 06
pressure plate 950 116 023 02
drive plate 950 116 012 04
Pelican - 3-Piece Clutch Kit with Spring-Center Disc - 911 Carrera (1987-89), 911 Turbo (1976-89), 964 Carrera 4 (1989)
release bearing 950-116-080-08
guide tube 950-116-813-06
pressure plate 950-116-023-03
drive plate 930-116-014-02
couple of extras common to all the above
guide tube bolt 90027005502 x2
pressure plate bolt (short - non DMFW type) 900-067-045-03 x9
All of this tells me the 950 116 012 52 rubber clutch disc, 930-116-014-02 spring clutch disc and vertex spring clutch disc are interchangable if you are using 950 116 080 08 release bearing and 950 116 813 06 guide tube.
.... update webcat.sachs.de is a great resource!
If you ask Porsche or Sachs the 89 C4 doesn't officially have a clutch kit listed, which means you have to buy the parts individually at a significantly greater cost. However, checking on the sachs website it is clear that the exact individual parts are included in the 3.2 G50 kit!
Here's their listing for the 3.2 G50 Kit:
SACHS 3000 950 010
Kupplungssatz
Montagezeit : 9,30 Std.
Durchmesser [mm]: 240
Zähnezahl: 23
Einzelteile siehe Stückliste:
3082 175 232 ( Kupplungsdruckplatte / 1 Stück ) (Pressure plate)
1878 005 350 ( Kupplungsscheibe / 1 Stück ) (Clutch disc)
3151 000 464 ( Ausrücklager / 1 Stück ) (Throw out bearing)
4200 080 060 ( Fett (Hochleistungsgleitfett) / 1 Stück ) (Grease)
And here are the individual parts they list for the 89 C4:
SACHS 3082 175 232
Kupplungsdruckplatte
bis Bj. : 08/1989
Kenngröße: GMFZ240
Durchmesser [mm]: 240
SACHS 1878 005 350
Kupplungsscheibe
bis Bj. : 08/1989
Kenngröße: 240VTB
Durchmesser [mm]: 240
Nabenprofil: 23,3x26,3-23N
Zähnezahl: 23
SACHS 3151 000 464
Ausrücklager
bis Bj. : 08/1989
Kenngröße: KZIZ-2
factory 89 c4 964 (rubber clutch)
release bearing 950 116 080 04 superceded to 950 116 080 08
guide tube 950 116 813 06
pressure plate 950 116 023 03
drive plate 950 116 012 52
factory 3.2 G50 (rubber clutch)
release bearing 950 116 080 01 superceded to 950 116 080 02 (or 03)
guide tube 950 116 813 06
pressure plate 950 116 023 02
drive plate 950 116 012 04
Pelican - 3-Piece Clutch Kit with Spring-Center Disc - 911 Carrera (1987-89), 911 Turbo (1976-89), 964 Carrera 4 (1989)
release bearing 950-116-080-08
guide tube 950-116-813-06
pressure plate 950-116-023-03
drive plate 930-116-014-02
couple of extras common to all the above
guide tube bolt 90027005502 x2
pressure plate bolt (short - non DMFW type) 900-067-045-03 x9
All of this tells me the 950 116 012 52 rubber clutch disc, 930-116-014-02 spring clutch disc and vertex spring clutch disc are interchangable if you are using 950 116 080 08 release bearing and 950 116 813 06 guide tube.
.... update webcat.sachs.de is a great resource!
If you ask Porsche or Sachs the 89 C4 doesn't officially have a clutch kit listed, which means you have to buy the parts individually at a significantly greater cost. However, checking on the sachs website it is clear that the exact individual parts are included in the 3.2 G50 kit!
Here's their listing for the 3.2 G50 Kit:
SACHS 3000 950 010
Kupplungssatz
Montagezeit : 9,30 Std.
Durchmesser [mm]: 240
Zähnezahl: 23
Einzelteile siehe Stückliste:
3082 175 232 ( Kupplungsdruckplatte / 1 Stück ) (Pressure plate)
1878 005 350 ( Kupplungsscheibe / 1 Stück ) (Clutch disc)
3151 000 464 ( Ausrücklager / 1 Stück ) (Throw out bearing)
4200 080 060 ( Fett (Hochleistungsgleitfett) / 1 Stück ) (Grease)
And here are the individual parts they list for the 89 C4:
SACHS 3082 175 232
Kupplungsdruckplatte
bis Bj. : 08/1989
Kenngröße: GMFZ240
Durchmesser [mm]: 240
SACHS 1878 005 350
Kupplungsscheibe
bis Bj. : 08/1989
Kenngröße: 240VTB
Durchmesser [mm]: 240
Nabenprofil: 23,3x26,3-23N
Zähnezahl: 23
SACHS 3151 000 464
Ausrücklager
bis Bj. : 08/1989
Kenngröße: KZIZ-2
Last edited by alexjc4; 07-12-2012 at 07:09 AM.
07-12-2012, 08:25 AM
#12
Three Wheelin'
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Location: Helotes, TX
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Hi folks, I'm after some help with the diagnosis and replacement part selection.
Towards the end of the track day yesterday I started to notice a significant clunk and a lot of rattling as the transmission loaded and unloaded, especially at low speed.
There is no noise in gear (other than the coffee grinder its always had) and no problem engaging gears.
All seems consistent with failure of the rubber clutch centre which is peculiar to the 89 C4.
Replacements seem to be extortionately expensive with most uk suppliers offering only the full kit with a new rubber centered clutch disc, pressure plate , bearing etc. for £800+
An alternative offered by pelican is a sachs spring centre disc using a 75-77 3.0 turbo part number, and a similar one from vertex auto which comes in at a mere $198 dollars (which will end up as $300 after shipping and tax i guess) It seems an updated guide tube may be needed when moving to the spring clutch but its not 100% clear.
Well thats where I am upto, any input on the original diagnosis or parts selection would be great.
Towards the end of the track day yesterday I started to notice a significant clunk and a lot of rattling as the transmission loaded and unloaded, especially at low speed.
There is no noise in gear (other than the coffee grinder its always had) and no problem engaging gears.
All seems consistent with failure of the rubber clutch centre which is peculiar to the 89 C4.
Replacements seem to be extortionately expensive with most uk suppliers offering only the full kit with a new rubber centered clutch disc, pressure plate , bearing etc. for £800+
An alternative offered by pelican is a sachs spring centre disc using a 75-77 3.0 turbo part number, and a similar one from vertex auto which comes in at a mere $198 dollars (which will end up as $300 after shipping and tax i guess) It seems an updated guide tube may be needed when moving to the spring clutch but its not 100% clear.
Well thats where I am upto, any input on the original diagnosis or parts selection would be great.
If the resolution of a couple of other issues while I'm in there goes as well, I'll begin to think that Ferry is smiling down on me.
11-07-2022, 07:02 AM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
10 years after the event but how did this end up, alexjc4 ? I have exactly the same issue with an 89 C4.
The job spiralled a bit , with a few thousand $ of "while you're in there" tasks since the engine was out. So the saving of going with the vertex over the rubber clutch was a bit meaningless.
The only thing to note is that the rubber centred clutch is somewhat quieter, the 89 gearbox chatters at low speed a bit more with a spring clutch, so i would probably be tempted to go with the rubber one "next time" just for that.