Dreaming of my first Porsche ... a 964
04-13-2012, 11:04 PM
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Dreaming of my first Porsche ... a 964
I'm reasonably new to the forum, and have tried to spend my time reading, learning, and understanding more about air cooled 911s, more specifically, a 964.
For the last year, I haven't been able to get the idea of buying one out of my mind. May sound silly to some (my wife for one) and may sound very familiar to some of you here.
I'm here to ask you for guidance. As existing or past owners of these cars, I have a few key questions I'd like to ask of you, and hope you'd be willing to share your experiences with me. I anticipate that some of you will give me a reality check and crush my dreams. I am okay with that. Give it to me straight.
My background with cars has been primarily with Japanese cars. I have owned various flavors from the land of the rising sun, both NA and turbo cars. My last car was a personally imported Evolution VIII MR which I imported from Japan. In parallel, I was in the process of restoring a 1973 240Z. After having to move internationally for work (from Australia to the USA) I bought an S2000, a car that I've always wanted to own. For the most part, the S2000 is a great drivers car. And I may very well keep it.
Regardless, the 911, and more specifically, the 964 and the 993 have been very special to me. I'm not sure what happened to me along the way, but somewhere, I stopped lusting after brand new cars, and started really falling in love with older cars (hence the 240Z obsession perhaps). I won't bore you or preach to the choir, I'm sure you know what I mean.
So, onto my questions:
1) I have a budget of approximately $25K. Is this a realistic budget to get a solid, undamaged or unmolested, mechanically reliable 964? (I don't mind if the paint is not 10/10, or if the interior needs a little bit of attention, although, of course I'd prefer it to be clean)
2) I have read that the air cooled Porsches are reliable if well maintained and looked after. Typically, how much money would I be looking at, maintenance wise, beyond the oil changes?
3) If I find the right car, I do plan on getting a inspection done. Would you recommend any local Porsche dealer to do this? (of course, I realize this depends on the location of the car I find).
4) And finally, the magical question. Am I kidding myself here? Coming from a world of driving Hondas, Mitsubishis and Subarus (which have all been reliable for me), am I setting myself up for heartache?
Well, I've said enough for now. Thank you (in advance) for your time and advise. Looking forward to learning from you and getting to know some of you over time.
For the last year, I haven't been able to get the idea of buying one out of my mind. May sound silly to some (my wife for one) and may sound very familiar to some of you here.
I'm here to ask you for guidance. As existing or past owners of these cars, I have a few key questions I'd like to ask of you, and hope you'd be willing to share your experiences with me. I anticipate that some of you will give me a reality check and crush my dreams. I am okay with that. Give it to me straight.
My background with cars has been primarily with Japanese cars. I have owned various flavors from the land of the rising sun, both NA and turbo cars. My last car was a personally imported Evolution VIII MR which I imported from Japan. In parallel, I was in the process of restoring a 1973 240Z. After having to move internationally for work (from Australia to the USA) I bought an S2000, a car that I've always wanted to own. For the most part, the S2000 is a great drivers car. And I may very well keep it.
Regardless, the 911, and more specifically, the 964 and the 993 have been very special to me. I'm not sure what happened to me along the way, but somewhere, I stopped lusting after brand new cars, and started really falling in love with older cars (hence the 240Z obsession perhaps). I won't bore you or preach to the choir, I'm sure you know what I mean.
So, onto my questions:
1) I have a budget of approximately $25K. Is this a realistic budget to get a solid, undamaged or unmolested, mechanically reliable 964? (I don't mind if the paint is not 10/10, or if the interior needs a little bit of attention, although, of course I'd prefer it to be clean)
2) I have read that the air cooled Porsches are reliable if well maintained and looked after. Typically, how much money would I be looking at, maintenance wise, beyond the oil changes?
3) If I find the right car, I do plan on getting a inspection done. Would you recommend any local Porsche dealer to do this? (of course, I realize this depends on the location of the car I find).
4) And finally, the magical question. Am I kidding myself here? Coming from a world of driving Hondas, Mitsubishis and Subarus (which have all been reliable for me), am I setting myself up for heartache?
Well, I've said enough for now. Thank you (in advance) for your time and advise. Looking forward to learning from you and getting to know some of you over time.
04-13-2012, 11:22 PM
#2
1. Yes, it wont be a garage queen with low miles, but you can get a solid, more or less undamaged, more or less unmolested, and reliable 964.
2. You are going to spend money on the car. I am not sure if you have considered even an oil change if you do it yourself is going to be over a $100.00, and a valve adjust ever year or 12k if you can't do it yourself is going to be a $1000 plus or minus. It is a 20 year old car so stuff breaks and the car you get is going to have some minor issues that will need addressed. I am somewhere around 2-3K a year and I do the work myself, and I just spent $7500 and have another $1000 I need to do soon. Interestingly, some things you'd think would be expensive are actually pretty reasonable, while other things are STUPID money.
3. Depends on if its a dealer who sees older car regularly.
4. No idea, at times they can be frustrating for some people who dont really get the car. For me even when it goes wrong it's relaxing to work on an old aircooled Porsche. However, it's not for everyone.
If you arer patient, persistant, calm, willing to learn the car it can be very rewarding. It helps to think like a German engineer, at very least with an open mind, otherwise some of your Japanese experience might be maddening when it comes to a 911.
They are very different than Japanese cars though, which are by no means perfectly reliable either. Mechaniclly, however, Porsches have been always pretty reliable, Derek Bell who raced them forever, said the 962 only failed to bring him home once. If you take care of a Porsche it will take care of you. You have to be dedicated, It's not something to go into lightly. Maybe I am wrong but you have to have the passion for success. As it's been said, "it's not just another car it is a religon", which it is.
They do have annoying other issues with switches and CCUs, rear spoilers and the list goes on, but my car has never failed to get me home.
As said, it can be very rewarding. Your S2000 will never come close to the same feeling you get driving a 964. They are a universe apart. A Porsche will bring a smile to your face everytime and the S2000 will become ho-hum. A 964 is a raw, pure, connected drive experience that compares to nothing else out there. It will pretty much do everything you ask of it.
2. You are going to spend money on the car. I am not sure if you have considered even an oil change if you do it yourself is going to be over a $100.00, and a valve adjust ever year or 12k if you can't do it yourself is going to be a $1000 plus or minus. It is a 20 year old car so stuff breaks and the car you get is going to have some minor issues that will need addressed. I am somewhere around 2-3K a year and I do the work myself, and I just spent $7500 and have another $1000 I need to do soon. Interestingly, some things you'd think would be expensive are actually pretty reasonable, while other things are STUPID money.
3. Depends on if its a dealer who sees older car regularly.
4. No idea, at times they can be frustrating for some people who dont really get the car. For me even when it goes wrong it's relaxing to work on an old aircooled Porsche. However, it's not for everyone.
If you arer patient, persistant, calm, willing to learn the car it can be very rewarding. It helps to think like a German engineer, at very least with an open mind, otherwise some of your Japanese experience might be maddening when it comes to a 911.
They are very different than Japanese cars though, which are by no means perfectly reliable either. Mechaniclly, however, Porsches have been always pretty reliable, Derek Bell who raced them forever, said the 962 only failed to bring him home once. If you take care of a Porsche it will take care of you. You have to be dedicated, It's not something to go into lightly. Maybe I am wrong but you have to have the passion for success. As it's been said, "it's not just another car it is a religon", which it is.
They do have annoying other issues with switches and CCUs, rear spoilers and the list goes on, but my car has never failed to get me home.
As said, it can be very rewarding. Your S2000 will never come close to the same feeling you get driving a 964. They are a universe apart. A Porsche will bring a smile to your face everytime and the S2000 will become ho-hum. A 964 is a raw, pure, connected drive experience that compares to nothing else out there. It will pretty much do everything you ask of it.
Last edited by Makmov; 04-13-2012 at 11:40 PM.
04-14-2012, 12:25 AM
#3
For $25K you can get a nicely sorted car. There have been multiple cars offered by Rennlist members in the past year that had recent top end rebuilds, updated suspension, new clutches, etc. The great thing about a Rennlister's car is that you can likely read everything about the car you are considering.
You can save lots of money if you are at all mechanically inclined or you can spend lots if you are not. People on this board will tell you exactly how to do just about any repair you can imagine. Parts and an oil change will likely be more than on your Honda, but maybe not.
Here's the best part, you get to drive a 964 and in 5 years you can sell it for the $25K you spend now, whereas your Honda, Mitsubishi or Subaru will be worth a fraction of what you paid. I'm not knocking those cars. They are well designed and well built, but lets face it, they don't hold their value like a 911.
You can save lots of money if you are at all mechanically inclined or you can spend lots if you are not. People on this board will tell you exactly how to do just about any repair you can imagine. Parts and an oil change will likely be more than on your Honda, but maybe not.
Here's the best part, you get to drive a 964 and in 5 years you can sell it for the $25K you spend now, whereas your Honda, Mitsubishi or Subaru will be worth a fraction of what you paid. I'm not knocking those cars. They are well designed and well built, but lets face it, they don't hold their value like a 911.
04-14-2012, 12:53 AM
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Makmov: Thank you for your detailed response and advise. I especially like the end, about what you said about the "feeling you get from driving a 964". Honestly, that's what I am anticipating. I do believe to be a passionate guy, and am okay with dealing with the quirks of an older car (remember, I bought a 1973 car with the thought of slowly learning to restore it on my own).
993James993: Thanks you for your response as well
I am hoping to buy a fellow Rennlist member's car, as I have found people who are passionate enough to be on forums (well, most) do take care of their cars more than the average owner. Perhaps a broad brush statement, but that's been my personal experience so far.
I won't pretend to be a mechanical genius. Far from it. But I am eager to learn, and am not afraid of getting my hands dirty with tools. I have what I'd like to think is a healthy balance of craziness and curiosity. When I get stuck (which can happen), I turn to forum members, and eventually when all else fails, an expert at a local shop.
I guess my first job would be to sell my S2000 and the parts I have for it (some brand new, never installed). With that, I can then start looking for my 964, or a 993.
If you guys (or anyone else reading) have further advise for me, please share. Thanks again, and have a great weekend
993James993: Thanks you for your response as well
I am hoping to buy a fellow Rennlist member's car, as I have found people who are passionate enough to be on forums (well, most) do take care of their cars more than the average owner. Perhaps a broad brush statement, but that's been my personal experience so far.I won't pretend to be a mechanical genius. Far from it. But I am eager to learn, and am not afraid of getting my hands dirty with tools. I have what I'd like to think is a healthy balance of craziness and curiosity. When I get stuck (which can happen), I turn to forum members, and eventually when all else fails, an expert at a local shop.
I guess my first job would be to sell my S2000 and the parts I have for it (some brand new, never installed). With that, I can then start looking for my 964, or a 993.
If you guys (or anyone else reading) have further advise for me, please share. Thanks again, and have a great weekend
04-14-2012, 02:04 AM
#5
One caution, the 964 and '95 993 are OBD-1 cars. '96 and onward 993's are OBD II. If you live in the US most states will not let you register a car with a check engine fault. OBD II 993's can show this fault due to clogged SAI ports. The repair is expensive. It will blow your your budget. I would also stick with the 964 as they are pretty much at the bottom of the depreciation curve.
04-14-2012, 02:06 AM
#6
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What part of the USA are you in? There is a lot of advise on looking for cars here on the Forum. I'd also suggest you locate a copy of Adrian Streather's 964 Companion book, as there are literally hundreds of pages of 964 Pr0n, reading up on the design philosophy, maintenance, major systems, and of course a "how to buy" section.
Don't hang yourself from the first tree you find... look at lots of cars, and think about the difference between the C4 and C2, as you will run into examples of both. You'll spend a little less for a cabrio or a Tip car, as the coupes (especially without a sunroof) demand the highest prices. I have a C4, which serves my needs in the NW rain and winter as well as summer.
Think about the kind of driving you want to do, and that will help narrow your requirements.
As many will tell you from experience, a ppi is mandatory.... not just a good idea. You simply don't know what you're getting without one.
As for maintenance, all but the hairiest work can be done on your own if you're a competent/dedicated learner. I came from Fiats, Saabs and BMWs, and I am perfectly comfortable with the 964 as it is pretty logically designed for maintenance. The oil change procedure is nothing like you're used to, but you'll get it once you've spilled 3-4 quarts on the floor of your garage...
The only issues tend to arise in the 90's era electronics. The contacts and connectors wear, and some of the circuit boards have issues. The Climate Control system has servo motors that can fail, and so far aren't easy to fix. I am working on a solution for that.. stay tuned.
Otherwise we're here to help. Some RL members have offered in the past to go look at cars that are far away to do a first-pass. This is something we do for each other here...
Have fun.. and welcome to the team!
Don't hang yourself from the first tree you find... look at lots of cars, and think about the difference between the C4 and C2, as you will run into examples of both. You'll spend a little less for a cabrio or a Tip car, as the coupes (especially without a sunroof) demand the highest prices. I have a C4, which serves my needs in the NW rain and winter as well as summer.
Think about the kind of driving you want to do, and that will help narrow your requirements.
As many will tell you from experience, a ppi is mandatory.... not just a good idea. You simply don't know what you're getting without one.
As for maintenance, all but the hairiest work can be done on your own if you're a competent/dedicated learner. I came from Fiats, Saabs and BMWs, and I am perfectly comfortable with the 964 as it is pretty logically designed for maintenance. The oil change procedure is nothing like you're used to, but you'll get it once you've spilled 3-4 quarts on the floor of your garage...
The only issues tend to arise in the 90's era electronics. The contacts and connectors wear, and some of the circuit boards have issues. The Climate Control system has servo motors that can fail, and so far aren't easy to fix. I am working on a solution for that.. stay tuned.
Otherwise we're here to help. Some RL members have offered in the past to go look at cars that are far away to do a first-pass. This is something we do for each other here...
Have fun.. and welcome to the team!
04-14-2012, 02:13 AM
#7
All good advice. I wasn't refering to the quirks of an older car, just the unusal quirks of a 911. There is nothing else like it in the world. There are no other rear engined sports cars, but the are pretty easy to work on once you have it figured out.
Yes a PPI is mandatory if you don't know the car, and everything else written here is pretty much spot on.
Your 25k wont go nearly as far on a 993, and a lot of people say the 993 experience is watered down.
I also have a C4 and have been very happy with it. I did have a C2 for a few months at the same time, and to be perfectly honest I liked my C4 better and sold the C2.
Yes a PPI is mandatory if you don't know the car, and everything else written here is pretty much spot on.
Your 25k wont go nearly as far on a 993, and a lot of people say the 993 experience is watered down.
I also have a C4 and have been very happy with it. I did have a C2 for a few months at the same time, and to be perfectly honest I liked my C4 better and sold the C2.
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04-14-2012, 10:43 AM
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I have purchased two 964 with low miles (coupe and cab) for under $25k and both were garage queens. However knowing and trusting a good mechanic is the key factor regardless of everything else.
04-14-2012, 12:32 PM
#10
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u can't go wrong with a 964
hi,
i second all of the above, i also think that you shouldn't rush and wait for the near perfect one... I'm speaking for myself here but I'm sure I'm not alone... our 964s are on going projects.. they will run fine just the way they are but its part of the experience to tinker and improve. reenlist does a very good job of keeping one linked to all other like minded porsche-aholics..
i am in dubai and parts are very hard to come by, so are able experienced hands but proper maintenance and understanding the car keeps everything nearly predictable, so a spare DME relay, belts a couple of switches is good insurance but on the whole, very very reliable cars.
and every drive is a smile bringing experience..
welcome to the fold.
i second all of the above, i also think that you shouldn't rush and wait for the near perfect one... I'm speaking for myself here but I'm sure I'm not alone... our 964s are on going projects.. they will run fine just the way they are but its part of the experience to tinker and improve. reenlist does a very good job of keeping one linked to all other like minded porsche-aholics..
i am in dubai and parts are very hard to come by, so are able experienced hands but proper maintenance and understanding the car keeps everything nearly predictable, so a spare DME relay, belts a couple of switches is good insurance but on the whole, very very reliable cars.
and every drive is a smile bringing experience..
welcome to the fold.
04-14-2012, 02:30 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
I would like to add, your AVATAR is very familiar, do a search for "ILKO" and you will se what I mean.
GLW with your quest into Porsche ownership; after you have bought one there is no going back.
GLW with your quest into Porsche ownership; after you have bought one there is no going back.
04-14-2012, 03:47 PM
#12
It's probably not going to happen any longer prices are going up on these cars bottom was probably about 1.5 - 2 years ago.
04-14-2012, 11:21 PM
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04-15-2012, 12:54 AM
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@tbennett017 - Tom, I'm pretty much in the same boat as the OP, but I'm set on 964 C4 coupe and I'm in Portland. Any ideas where to start looking? I seen a few at Luxe (driven those), and on C-List, but other than that? I was thinking of calling around to the mechanics to see if they know of any cars for sale. Who do you use for mechanic? I was thining of heimann and theckmann in SE. Any help appreciated. - jim
04-15-2012, 01:18 AM
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Having just made the transfer from Japanese to Porsche I can tell you nothing compares. The power may not be in the same league as a modified Evo but the feedback, power delivery and sound (oh the sound) will make you quickly forget all that.
Drive lots of them, drive some more and then hone in on the model you want. Then be patient, one will come up that ticks most of the boxes eventually.
I have to echo what Makmov said. Some stuff is surprisingly cheap and then other parts make you say- huh? If you've been modifying Japanese cars, especially using high end after market parts, then for me the prices aren't altogether that different. Until you get into engine rebuilds, that's where it really seems to go into another league!
Drive lots of them, drive some more and then hone in on the model you want. Then be patient, one will come up that ticks most of the boxes eventually.
I have to echo what Makmov said. Some stuff is surprisingly cheap and then other parts make you say- huh? If you've been modifying Japanese cars, especially using high end after market parts, then for me the prices aren't altogether that different. Until you get into engine rebuilds, that's where it really seems to go into another league!