Chunk of piston ring found in engine oil
02-19-2012, 02:01 PM
#48
I second that. MetalGuru was high on that list too until he started crackin' on green cars a couple of weeks ago. 
02-19-2012, 02:13 PM
#49
Nordschleife Master
Are you sure. I am looking at a 930 107 764 00 Porsche genuine Oil filter and I am not seeing a valve in it.
I was always under the impression that there was one in the case or the filter, and you just need one and it was in one or the other place.
I was also under the impression there was a t-stat in the oil filter console. I could be wrong on that though.
I was always under the impression that there was one in the case or the filter, and you just need one and it was in one or the other place.
I was also under the impression there was a t-stat in the oil filter console. I could be wrong on that though.
2)The valve that is built into oil filters is a bypass valve for when the oil filter is choking off the flow of oil .
3)The valve in the thermostat controls the flow / temp of the oil .
1) The oil pump that pumps oil into the motor can exceed the "needs" of the motor . The valve in the case will open up and control the max psi . When that valve opens up the extra oil that is let out goes back out . If the valve in the case has a rating of 100 psi , the oil pressure seen by the bearings etc will never see more than 100 psi . At 101 psi the valve blows open and oil flows away . When the psi drops below 100 psi the spring pushes the piston closed .
Different motors have different max psi , the springs are replaceable , some people need higher psi so they replace the spring with one that has a higher psi rating .
2) The oil filter valve stays closed until the pressure difference between one side of the filter element and the other shows that there is a blockage of flow through the filter element . This blockage of flow is a problem that causes oil starvation . Oil will not flow as needed and the motor is going to start eating itself for lack of oil . Its better to bypass the plugged filter and supply unfiltered oil than no oil at all or to little oil .
3) The valve in the thermostat housing controls the flow of oil to the oil cooler , when the oil gets hot enough to "need" cooling the valve sends oil to the oil cooler , if the oil coming out of the motor cools off , say coasting down hill , the thermostat stops sending oil to the cooler .
The valve in the thermostat housing can not work as the oil filter bypass valve unless it was plumbed parallel to the oil filter . It's not , it's plumbed serial .
The filter you are looking at is not the only filter people put on there 964 .
If you put a filter on that has no valve in it , then the whole thing people are saying about the valve opening commonly and that being a route for "crap" to get into the spray holes , goes away . A filter that has no bypass built in must flow all the oil hot or cold .
02-19-2012, 02:20 PM
#50
Nordschleife Master
02-19-2012, 03:06 PM
#51
02-19-2012, 05:37 PM
#53
1)The valve that controls the max psi is in the case .
2)The valve that is built into oil filters is a bypass valve for when the oil filter is choking off the flow of oil .
3)The valve in the thermostat controls the flow / temp of the oil .
1) The oil pump that pumps oil into the motor can exceed the "needs" of the motor . The valve in the case will open up and control the max psi . When that valve opens up the extra oil that is let out goes back out . If the valve in the case has a rating of 100 psi , the oil pressure seen by the bearings etc will never see more than 100 psi . At 101 psi the valve blows open and oil flows away . When the psi drops below 100 psi the spring pushes the piston closed .
Different motors have different max psi , the springs are replaceable , some people need higher psi so they replace the spring with one that has a higher psi rating .
2) The oil filter valve stays closed until the pressure difference between one side of the filter element and the other shows that there is a blockage of flow through the filter element . This blockage of flow is a problem that causes oil starvation . Oil will not flow as needed and the motor is going to start eating itself for lack of oil . Its better to bypass the plugged filter and supply unfiltered oil than no oil at all or to little oil .
3) The valve in the thermostat housing controls the flow of oil to the oil cooler , when the oil gets hot enough to "need" cooling the valve sends oil to the oil cooler , if the oil coming out of the motor cools off , say coasting down hill , the thermostat stops sending oil to the cooler .
The valve in the thermostat housing can not work as the oil filter bypass valve unless it was plumbed parallel to the oil filter . It's not , it's plumbed serial .
The filter you are looking at is not the only filter people put on there 964 .
If you put a filter on that has no valve in it , then the whole thing people are saying about the valve opening commonly and that being a route for "crap" to get into the spray holes , goes away . A filter that has no bypass built in must flow all the oil hot or cold .
2)The valve that is built into oil filters is a bypass valve for when the oil filter is choking off the flow of oil .
3)The valve in the thermostat controls the flow / temp of the oil .
1) The oil pump that pumps oil into the motor can exceed the "needs" of the motor . The valve in the case will open up and control the max psi . When that valve opens up the extra oil that is let out goes back out . If the valve in the case has a rating of 100 psi , the oil pressure seen by the bearings etc will never see more than 100 psi . At 101 psi the valve blows open and oil flows away . When the psi drops below 100 psi the spring pushes the piston closed .
Different motors have different max psi , the springs are replaceable , some people need higher psi so they replace the spring with one that has a higher psi rating .
2) The oil filter valve stays closed until the pressure difference between one side of the filter element and the other shows that there is a blockage of flow through the filter element . This blockage of flow is a problem that causes oil starvation . Oil will not flow as needed and the motor is going to start eating itself for lack of oil . Its better to bypass the plugged filter and supply unfiltered oil than no oil at all or to little oil .
3) The valve in the thermostat housing controls the flow of oil to the oil cooler , when the oil gets hot enough to "need" cooling the valve sends oil to the oil cooler , if the oil coming out of the motor cools off , say coasting down hill , the thermostat stops sending oil to the cooler .
The valve in the thermostat housing can not work as the oil filter bypass valve unless it was plumbed parallel to the oil filter . It's not , it's plumbed serial .
The filter you are looking at is not the only filter people put on there 964 .
If you put a filter on that has no valve in it , then the whole thing people are saying about the valve opening commonly and that being a route for "crap" to get into the spray holes , goes away . A filter that has no bypass built in must flow all the oil hot or cold .
However, then at the end of the day you agree that it is possible, and you would not stake your life on there is no way possible for a piece of ring material get to a bearing or a squirter hole? Yes?
02-19-2012, 07:16 PM
#54
Nordschleife Master
I would need to see the piston and cylinder before answering that , if the piston and cylinder got ground up while the piston ring was making its path to freedom ...
If on the other hand the piston and cylinder showed no "problems" , then all the oil was filtered and any tiny parts of the ring should be in the bottom of the case and or in the filter .
If on the other hand the piston and cylinder showed no "problems" , then all the oil was filtered and any tiny parts of the ring should be in the bottom of the case and or in the filter .
02-19-2012, 08:05 PM
#55
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
02-19-2012, 09:39 PM
#56
That is what I was looking for, usually the valve is pretty obivous. Oh I see it now.
Indy wrote:
The filter you are looking at is not the only filter people put on there 964 .
If you put a filter on that has no valve in it , then the whole thing people are saying about the valve opening commonly and that being a route for "crap" to get into the spray holes , goes away . A filter that has no bypass built in must flow all the oil hot or cold .
Is this not an implied admission?
Indy wrote:
The filter you are looking at is not the only filter people put on there 964 .
If you put a filter on that has no valve in it , then the whole thing people are saying about the valve opening commonly and that being a route for "crap" to get into the spray holes , goes away . A filter that has no bypass built in must flow all the oil hot or cold .
Is this not an implied admission?
02-20-2012, 12:08 AM
#57
Nordschleife Master
2)The valve that is built into oil filters is a bypass valve for when the oil filter is choking off the flow of oil .
2) The oil filter valve stays closed until the pressure difference between one side of the filter element and the other shows that there is a blockage of flow through the filter element . This blockage of flow is a problem that causes oil starvation . Oil will not flow as needed and the motor is going to start eating itself for lack of oil . Its better to bypass the plugged filter and supply unfiltered oil than no oil at all or to little oil .
2) The oil filter valve stays closed until the pressure difference between one side of the filter element and the other shows that there is a blockage of flow through the filter element . This blockage of flow is a problem that causes oil starvation . Oil will not flow as needed and the motor is going to start eating itself for lack of oil . Its better to bypass the plugged filter and supply unfiltered oil than no oil at all or to little oil .
02-20-2012, 07:27 AM
#58
I think this 'debate' is getting a bit childish now......the way I read it you guys are both right (and if there's any dispute it's about particle size):
A) Yes under normal circumstances debris would be caught in the oil screen / filter not to be passed on within the rest of the oil ways
B) Catastrophic piston failure / resulting debris can cause the filter to clog, the subsequent rise in pressure activating a bypass valve, allowing debris to reach bearings / squirters, cams etc. as well as being blown around the crank case.
To make 100% sure that no additional damage has been done, investigative measures are necessary similar to the ones suggested by Makmov. Just his honest advise. Since such measures are very time involving/expensive a more economic alternative might be to flush the oil, replace the offending piston/barrel and hope for the best.
To reduce the risks involved with the latter approach not being a suitable solution it would make sense to investigate what level the oil pressure was at when hot (potentially indicating severe bearing damage), open up the oil filter (if still available) to assess the probability of it being clogged, and flush the oil cooler to look for swarf.
If oil pressure is good, the oil filter looks ok-ish and the cooler holds nicely filtered oil it can be assumed with high probability that debris hasn't further entered the engine, and a quick fix is in fact a durable option.
Try to be as clean as possible, windage can get oil/debris into all sorts of nooks and crannies. I'd start up with a cheap mineral oil (also good for initial bedding in of new piston) and flush the system after 15 minutes including filter change. Repeat with synthetic oil after 1000 miles, normal service from there.
A) Yes under normal circumstances debris would be caught in the oil screen / filter not to be passed on within the rest of the oil ways
B) Catastrophic piston failure / resulting debris can cause the filter to clog, the subsequent rise in pressure activating a bypass valve, allowing debris to reach bearings / squirters, cams etc. as well as being blown around the crank case.
To make 100% sure that no additional damage has been done, investigative measures are necessary similar to the ones suggested by Makmov. Just his honest advise. Since such measures are very time involving/expensive a more economic alternative might be to flush the oil, replace the offending piston/barrel and hope for the best.
To reduce the risks involved with the latter approach not being a suitable solution it would make sense to investigate what level the oil pressure was at when hot (potentially indicating severe bearing damage), open up the oil filter (if still available) to assess the probability of it being clogged, and flush the oil cooler to look for swarf.
If oil pressure is good, the oil filter looks ok-ish and the cooler holds nicely filtered oil it can be assumed with high probability that debris hasn't further entered the engine, and a quick fix is in fact a durable option.
Try to be as clean as possible, windage can get oil/debris into all sorts of nooks and crannies. I'd start up with a cheap mineral oil (also good for initial bedding in of new piston) and flush the system after 15 minutes including filter change. Repeat with synthetic oil after 1000 miles, normal service from there.
02-20-2012, 12:36 PM
#60
Nordschleife Master
It sounds like we agree .
I would need to see the piston and cylinder before answering that , if the piston and cylinder got ground up while the piston ring was making its path to freedom ...
If on the other hand the piston and cylinder showed no "problems" , then all the oil was filtered and any tiny parts of the ring should be in the bottom of the case and or in the filter .
If on the other hand the piston and cylinder showed no "problems" , then all the oil was filtered and any tiny parts of the ring should be in the bottom of the case and or in the filter .