Prospective Purchase...1990 964....oil leak question
12-10-2011, 01:41 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Prospective Purchase...1990 964....oil leak question
All
I am looking at purchasing a 1990 964 with 74k on the odometer. This is a vehicle that has coilovers, performance muffler and clutch already done. Can't get a PPI done today due to no shops open but the dealer won't take a deposit from me pending PPI due to the amount of traffic the car has drawn.
Everything on the car checks out well. I am a person that is mechanical in nature and has done all my own car work in the past, from engine transplants on down the line. The only thing that sticks out is the oil leak which is typical of pre-91 964 cars. I have a bunch of pictures of underneath. Lookiing to get some advice from the specialist on board here about how bad it looks and what price range would I be looking at to fix? How long could I go with out major danger?
pics attached
I am looking at purchasing a 1990 964 with 74k on the odometer. This is a vehicle that has coilovers, performance muffler and clutch already done. Can't get a PPI done today due to no shops open but the dealer won't take a deposit from me pending PPI due to the amount of traffic the car has drawn.
Everything on the car checks out well. I am a person that is mechanical in nature and has done all my own car work in the past, from engine transplants on down the line. The only thing that sticks out is the oil leak which is typical of pre-91 964 cars. I have a bunch of pictures of underneath. Lookiing to get some advice from the specialist on board here about how bad it looks and what price range would I be looking at to fix? How long could I go with out major danger?
pics attached
12-10-2011, 01:58 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
having had similar experiences i thought i would chime in.
2 years ago i purchased a 1990 964 silver/black w/97K miles...beautiful looking car both inside and out with the usual oil leaks similar to the photos you posted.
my leaks were coming from the case bolts and other areas including the oil temp sensor. because these engines don't have case 1/2 seals they leak and the only remedy is to open the engine up and machine the case for a seal.
even though i knew this before my purchase i bought the car and enjoyed it but ultimately the oil leaks and burnt oil smell were frustrating and really got to me after time and i soid the car. because one of the leaks was dripping thru the rectangular hole in the eplastic engine tray, i did make a sort of diaper which consisted of oil absorbant pads and wire mesh that prevented any oil from laning on the garage floor.
the initial excitement of owning the car overshadows the fact that you will be driving a leaking/smelling/dripping car that at some point gets in the way of enjoyment.
if you are skilled enough to rebuild the engine thats another story. heres a photo of the 964 i owned.
2 years ago i purchased a 1990 964 silver/black w/97K miles...beautiful looking car both inside and out with the usual oil leaks similar to the photos you posted.
my leaks were coming from the case bolts and other areas including the oil temp sensor. because these engines don't have case 1/2 seals they leak and the only remedy is to open the engine up and machine the case for a seal.
even though i knew this before my purchase i bought the car and enjoyed it but ultimately the oil leaks and burnt oil smell were frustrating and really got to me after time and i soid the car. because one of the leaks was dripping thru the rectangular hole in the eplastic engine tray, i did make a sort of diaper which consisted of oil absorbant pads and wire mesh that prevented any oil from laning on the garage floor.
the initial excitement of owning the car overshadows the fact that you will be driving a leaking/smelling/dripping car that at some point gets in the way of enjoyment.
if you are skilled enough to rebuild the engine thats another story. heres a photo of the 964 i owned.
12-10-2011, 01:58 PM
#3
The problem with an oil leak (as you probably know) it will cover an area far greater than its actual size. It would need to be cleaned by someone to determine if its a oil pressure seal for £2, or engine overhaul for 4K or rocker cover seals...
Sorry but anyone that can help from pics of an engine covered in oil is probably guessing. (or just far better at diagnosis)
Sorry but anyone that can help from pics of an engine covered in oil is probably guessing. (or just far better at diagnosis)
12-10-2011, 02:46 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Definitely don't succumb to the pressure that the dealer is laying out on you..."won't take a deposit...due to the amount of traffic the car has drawn." Textbook car dealer speak.
I spent north of $20k to fix an oil leak (caught a bad case of WYIT disease during the process) so without a PPI from a knowledgeable Porsche mechanic, you're rolling the dice. If you're dealing with just the floor salesman, I'd go over his head and go to the boss dealer and see if he'd be willing to work with you. My .02...
I spent north of $20k to fix an oil leak (caught a bad case of WYIT disease during the process) so without a PPI from a knowledgeable Porsche mechanic, you're rolling the dice. If you're dealing with just the floor salesman, I'd go over his head and go to the boss dealer and see if he'd be willing to work with you. My .02...
12-10-2011, 03:01 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
i would say the dealer mentioned no deposit because he is hoping the car sells before a PPI is performed...
its no secret these engine cases leak and unless you have service records that the engine was resealed, there is a 100% chance it is a leaking case and most likely a host of other small leaks that would be lots easier to seal.
its no secret these engine cases leak and unless you have service records that the engine was resealed, there is a 100% chance it is a leaking case and most likely a host of other small leaks that would be lots easier to seal.
12-11-2011, 02:14 AM
#7
My 2c - Get the PPI done or move on to the next 964. My '91 has a few leaks that the PPI listed but not the case. It is a later '91 and has the gaskets. But more importantly you want the compression and leak down done. Read this article: http://www.autos.ca/auto-brands/feat...91-porsche-911
all the way to the end - "Update: A few months later, $10,000 in engine work required"
all the way to the end - "Update: A few months later, $10,000 in engine work required"
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12-12-2011, 06:08 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Guys
Thanks for all the input. Here is the latest. I did a PPI today. Took it to Skipper over at The Little Foreign Car Garage in Waltham, MA. Seems very knowledgeable. Races a 914-6 and had at least 4 964/993 in getting top ends done. He said that the car was the typical head to cylinder leaks and also looked like the oil tubes were replaced with adjustable/extended version to try and seal what could be done without yanking the engine. He also noted that there was oil splatter on the intake which indicated that the valve guides probably need to be done. He told me all in all, with the PSS9 coilovers, Billy Boat exhaust, sway bars and rs links already done and knowing I want to do those to whatever car I buy, that I have a very clean, perfect candidate for a top end. Clean car with only 74k and no signs of abuse. He quoted 5-7k for a top end and backs it up with 2/24k. he told me the lower end of the quote for just a reseal and closer to the 7 if the valve guides need to be done.
The dealer sales guy was with me and skipper showed him as well. The sales guy asked me to give him a number to go back to his boss with. i told him 16,500. Waiting to hear back now on my offer. They were originally asking 19k. So I figure a very clean car with all the mods done and the rare color at 16500 with me doing the top end gets me a perfect car(well as perfect as a 1990 can be) for 23k. Which seems to be inline with a really nice stock 964 never mind with mods and top end.
Thoughts?!
Thanks for all the input. Here is the latest. I did a PPI today. Took it to Skipper over at The Little Foreign Car Garage in Waltham, MA. Seems very knowledgeable. Races a 914-6 and had at least 4 964/993 in getting top ends done. He said that the car was the typical head to cylinder leaks and also looked like the oil tubes were replaced with adjustable/extended version to try and seal what could be done without yanking the engine. He also noted that there was oil splatter on the intake which indicated that the valve guides probably need to be done. He told me all in all, with the PSS9 coilovers, Billy Boat exhaust, sway bars and rs links already done and knowing I want to do those to whatever car I buy, that I have a very clean, perfect candidate for a top end. Clean car with only 74k and no signs of abuse. He quoted 5-7k for a top end and backs it up with 2/24k. he told me the lower end of the quote for just a reseal and closer to the 7 if the valve guides need to be done.
The dealer sales guy was with me and skipper showed him as well. The sales guy asked me to give him a number to go back to his boss with. i told him 16,500. Waiting to hear back now on my offer. They were originally asking 19k. So I figure a very clean car with all the mods done and the rare color at 16500 with me doing the top end gets me a perfect car(well as perfect as a 1990 can be) for 23k. Which seems to be inline with a really nice stock 964 never mind with mods and top end.
Thoughts?!
12-12-2011, 06:36 PM
#10
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Thread Starter
Slate Gray over black. Perhaps not as much rare but more likely rare that I ever see them come up for sale. As I listed out my preferences, slate gray is the most desirable color to me!
12-12-2011, 06:39 PM
#11
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I would factor in some money for a clutch--especially if it is the original dual mass.
I am assuming the shop did not do a leak test because he feels it needs a top end? -- most do the rings and valve guides when the cylinder head update is done because everything on the top has been removed.
I am assuming the shop did not do a leak test because he feels it needs a top end? -- most do the rings and valve guides when the cylinder head update is done because everything on the top has been removed.
12-12-2011, 06:48 PM
#12
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Thread Starter
From what I can gather the clutch had already been replaced. Feels real good, but getting confirmation from the dealer. Otherwise I am factoring 1k for an RS setup while the engine is out. Shop told me it would not charge for that work and only for the parts as it has to be reassembled anyway.
With only 74k on the odometer and the shape of the car and the responsiveness of the car, a leak down was not indicated.
With only 74k on the odometer and the shape of the car and the responsiveness of the car, a leak down was not indicated.
12-12-2011, 08:28 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Guys
Thanks for all the input. Here is the latest. I did a PPI today. Took it to Skipper over at The Little Foreign Car Garage in Waltham, MA. Seems very knowledgeable. Races a 914-6 and had at least 4 964/993 in getting top ends done. He said that the car was the typical head to cylinder leaks and also looked like the oil tubes were replaced with adjustable/extended version to try and seal what could be done without yanking the engine. He also noted that there was oil splatter on the intake which indicated that the valve guides probably need to be done. He told me all in all, with the PSS9 coilovers, Billy Boat exhaust, sway bars and rs links already done and knowing I want to do those to whatever car I buy, that I have a very clean, perfect candidate for a top end. Clean car with only 74k and no signs of abuse. He quoted 5-7k for a top end and backs it up with 2/24k. he told me the lower end of the quote for just a reseal and closer to the 7 if the valve guides need to be done.
The dealer sales guy was with me and skipper showed him as well. The sales guy asked me to give him a number to go back to his boss with. i told him 16,500. Waiting to hear back now on my offer. They were originally asking 19k. So I figure a very clean car with all the mods done and the rare color at 16500 with me doing the top end gets me a perfect car(well as perfect as a 1990 can be) for 23k. Which seems to be inline with a really nice stock 964 never mind with mods and top end.
Thoughts?!
Thanks for all the input. Here is the latest. I did a PPI today. Took it to Skipper over at The Little Foreign Car Garage in Waltham, MA. Seems very knowledgeable. Races a 914-6 and had at least 4 964/993 in getting top ends done. He said that the car was the typical head to cylinder leaks and also looked like the oil tubes were replaced with adjustable/extended version to try and seal what could be done without yanking the engine. He also noted that there was oil splatter on the intake which indicated that the valve guides probably need to be done. He told me all in all, with the PSS9 coilovers, Billy Boat exhaust, sway bars and rs links already done and knowing I want to do those to whatever car I buy, that I have a very clean, perfect candidate for a top end. Clean car with only 74k and no signs of abuse. He quoted 5-7k for a top end and backs it up with 2/24k. he told me the lower end of the quote for just a reseal and closer to the 7 if the valve guides need to be done.
The dealer sales guy was with me and skipper showed him as well. The sales guy asked me to give him a number to go back to his boss with. i told him 16,500. Waiting to hear back now on my offer. They were originally asking 19k. So I figure a very clean car with all the mods done and the rare color at 16500 with me doing the top end gets me a perfect car(well as perfect as a 1990 can be) for 23k. Which seems to be inline with a really nice stock 964 never mind with mods and top end.
Thoughts?!
At the track this weekend!
12-14-2011, 11:57 AM
#15
All
I am looking at purchasing a 1990 964 with 74k on the odometer. This is a vehicle that has coilovers, performance muffler and clutch already done. Can't get a PPI done today due to no shops open but the dealer won't take a deposit from me pending PPI due to the amount of traffic the car has drawn.
Everything on the car checks out well. I am a person that is mechanical in nature and has done all my own car work in the past, from engine transplants on down the line. The only thing that sticks out is the oil leak which is typical of pre-91 964 cars. I have a bunch of pictures of underneath. Lookiing to get some advice from the specialist on board here about how bad it looks and what price range would I be looking at to fix? How long could I go with out major danger?
pics attached
I am looking at purchasing a 1990 964 with 74k on the odometer. This is a vehicle that has coilovers, performance muffler and clutch already done. Can't get a PPI done today due to no shops open but the dealer won't take a deposit from me pending PPI due to the amount of traffic the car has drawn.
Everything on the car checks out well. I am a person that is mechanical in nature and has done all my own car work in the past, from engine transplants on down the line. The only thing that sticks out is the oil leak which is typical of pre-91 964 cars. I have a bunch of pictures of underneath. Lookiing to get some advice from the specialist on board here about how bad it looks and what price range would I be looking at to fix? How long could I go with out major danger?
pics attached
It doesn't look like any leaks are too bad mostly seepage. My 91 that was rebuilt and o-ringed seeps a little. So unless there is a bunch of actual drips dripping on the floor it is probably not too bad of a leak. The type, brand and weight of oil can also significantly change the amount it leaks.
It is hard to say where it is all coming from because it looks like it coming from everywhere.
Here is the rub. A minor as those leaks may or may not be, it is going to be a huge ticket to reseal a 964 engine.
As long as there is oil in it, and it doesn't get low, there is good pressure, and the oil isn't pouring out somewhere you are not going to hurt it driving like it is. Obvously someone else has.
If you do buy it I would clean it up under it as best as possible and try to identify where the leaks are. A lot of it you could probably tackle your self like valve covers, cam covers, even a rear main, which is a big job but not a hard job. You do need to pull the engine and seperate the trans from the engine. Make sure all the hoses are intact and not leaking, oil sending unit.
The problem with the early cars that you mentioned was the lack of head orings. The lack of those oring make them weep oil. That would be a major task requiring a machine shop if that hasn't or needs to be done. However, having said that, the lack of orings is NOT a performance issue or a serious oil leak issue - it usually just results in minor seepage.