Vandit

The other day I took my '91 Carrera 2 autocrossing for the first time since I bought it in March. I'd probably classify the outing as my worst autocrossing experience ever, but I think it was mostly due to me.

I'm not new to autocrossing, but I am new to autocrossing this type of car.

I've autocrossed this car very well, off and on, for the past few years. It's pretty well setup for a sports wagon. Coilovers w/ stiff springs, thick rear swaybar, negative camber dialed in up front, Enkei RPF1 wheels w/ sticky Dunlop Star Spec tires.


I should have figured little about driving a FWD car would transfer over to driving the C2.

I started the morning session and quickly realized my tire pressures were way wrong. I pumped them up to 40PSI or so, and wow. The car's back end could not be managed. Any attempt to push the car hard resulted in my consistently having to apply opposite lock and I actually spun out 3 times in 4 runs. 2 of those spins were in the same run.

I lowered the pressure a bunch in the afternoon session to about mid 30s and the grip improved quite a bit, but still not confidence inspiring. I think I was still pretty shaken up from the car being so wild in the morning.

This is definitely going to take some getting use to.

The car's suspension is stock (94k mile, 20yo stuff). The car is on 225/245 Michelin Pilot Sports that have a bunch of tread on them mounted on Cup 2 wheels. The motor mounts are dead. They're going to be replaced in the next month hopefully w/ Wevo mounts plus bracket gussets. I will not do another event until I complete the motor mount repair/upgrade.

Since I didn't really do any "good runs" i'll share some vids of my really bad runs.

Bad run w/ 1 spin.

You Tube

Worse run w/ 2 spins.

You Tube

Someone was actually out there taking pics and was gracious enough to share them w/ me, yay!













I need to fix that front grill too. The black plastic piece is smashed up, so I need to get a new one from Pelican.

Thanks for reading! Please share your experiences or give some feedback!

Oracle

Yes, 20yo stock suspension really sucks.. Your shocks and struts if original are shot by now, also new motor mounts keep the azz tighter..

In my case until I replaced shocks and struts with Bilstein HD and Green H&R then added a cross bar in the front the car was never right... Now it's much more consistent no matter what corner I throw the car in... The fact the engine is in behind the axle you'll always feel the heavy tail effect but if you learn how to manage that is very satisfying...

Nice car you got there! And the fastest colour! ;-)

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Vandit,

Just some observations,

1) Your tire pressures were wildly off and thats what eroded your confidence in the car. 40 psi on the rear (much less front) is FAR too much. Start with 32/36 psi, cold.

2) Your stock shocks were totally shot by 40K, never mind what they are now and thats why the car was all over the place and difficult for ANYONE to control. You can clearly see this in those great pictures.

With a decent suspension: shocks, springs, adjustable swaybars, its a totally different car in every respect and thats a game changer for you. Do all that followed by proper tire pressures so you have a good time and learn something,....

jimq

do a search. There is a fix for the grill

ValveFloat

I agree with what the others have said. Certainly replacing the worn out suspension, and keeping tire pressures in the mid to high 30's hot will help immensely. A more aggressive alignment wouldn't hurt either.
That said... I watched your videos, and they very much remind me of my first events in my 964. Besides some experience autocrossing my SWB 911, most of my experience was with FWD and AWD cars. My first few events with the 964 I spun it a couple times at each event. What I eventually learned is that I was just "behind" the car most of the time. I had to really step up my level of anticipation, and my reaction time. I think this might be more of a factor for an experienced autocrosser because you are used to the speed and the rate that things happen on an autocross course, but you aren't yet used to how quick the 911 will rotate. By the time you are correcting for the movement it's too far gone. When you are used to pushing hard, the level to which you must anticipate and react is even higher. Like it was stated above, learning to use the heavy rear end can be a lot of fun, and very rewarding.
My $.02

chris951

I autocrossed my 1990 C2 today for the first time and it is the best handling car I have ever driven. I have a lot more confidence because of this car, I can keep pushing harder. I have been autocrossing for 10 years.

August West

Excellent deployment of the windshield wipers during spin #1 of 2-spin video...couldn't hurt, right?

altarchsa

All of above re: suspension and driving is good advice. Here's a bit of my own:

1. Always remove the wiper fuse before autocrossing.
2. Never lift in a corner in a C2. See "anticipate" above.
3. If unable to do 2., trade for a C4.

( Thought I'd get that discussion started to spice up the thread a little.)

I've got some very nice pics of my 78 SC taking out a few cones at 60mph...........rear bumper first!

Seriously, hang in there. With your a-xing experience, you'll be turning some record times as soon as you begin to learn to slow sufficiently BEFORE entering the corners and get the power down IN the corners to throw that weight (and traction) onto the rear wheels.

Regarding fixing the smile, most of the info here is related to straightening the bottom of the smile. Yours appears to be straight, it's the middle piece that's crooked. I had to loosen the screws on the back side of this section, where it's attached to the mesh screen, to adjust and straighten mine out.

God luck and have fun.

P964miller

I have a stock c2 1990 and the suspension is fantastic! I had a new cayman and this old girl in soo much better round the country lanes! Have never driven something so capable round the countryside but I completely agree that its very important to brake before the turn and balance the throttle through the corners otherwise lift off spins seem easy to do!

aj986s

An unfortunate outcome of mounting wiper controls as a stalk on the steering column. Very common occurrence in autox when the hands get moving fast trying to keep up with the course. As mentioned, some autox'ers remove the wiper fuse during events.

boxsey911

I think you will find that the 964 is going to need much smoother steering input than your previous FWD A/X car. At the end of video 2 you really threw it in to that last turn...she was never going to come back from that one However, I guess you were a bit frustrated by that stage. And understandably so. Stick with her and you'll soon get the hang of the different driving style required

falcor

I've done 6 slaloms/autocrosses in my C2 now and I think your experience is a combination of the high tire pressures and what driving style you're used to from your old car. Myself I had a very light overpowered fwd car with most of the tricks done to it (Mk1 VW Scirocco 1.8T 20v) and it could be pretty much thrown around as I wanted too and when I put my right foot down it would straighten out and continue towards the horizon. The 964 needs a much more gentle and fluid touch, mine's got pretty good grip for being stock-ish but it will let you know when you're pushing it to far.

Since you were nice to share some vid's I'll show a couple of mine including a screwup....

misterbeverlyhills

Try sterring with the throttle and less on the wheel, get the car rotated into the turn better and you can power out earlier. Your videos show too much sterring wheel activity and too much tire squeal, the 911 has to be set up for the turn slow in and quick out.
I was exactly like this myself until I got the right shock and tire combo and at about the 4th AutoX I got the hang of it.
You look like you live somewhere it rains: get in the car and go to a parking lot in the wet, drive around in a circle till the back end steps out then correct it with the throttle only, don't move the sterring wheel. You will learn to fly through those cones in the esses with only the right foot moving.

Vandit

Thanks for all the comments and advice guys!

I definitely have a bunch to learn.

I'll be replacing the motor mounts hopefully next month. The suspension will have to wait since I want to do quite a bit more than simply replace the struts/shocks and that means I have to put together the budget for that.

The day of the autocross, after struggling, I texted rennlist member regulatori who has an identical C2 to tell him about my struggle. He told me what you all are telling me, brake hard going in, accelerate hard coming out, and the line that he said that stuck with me the most was "the hard part is scrubbing off speed w/o unsettling the car when you realize you're going too fast mid-corner " lol


Here's a vid of a past event in my FWD car. I guess I did learn to be quite forceful with the steering input in this car since i'm always looking for that motive traction to rotate the rear.

Vandit

After my initial horrible experience, I had told myself I wasn't going to autocross the car again until I did something about the suspension, but I got ditched by a few buddies on what was suppose to be my bachelor weekend, so I needed to get the F' out of the house.

The only thing that has changed since my first outing was replaced the busted MMs with Wevo semi-solid (blue) mounts. This time I made sure my tires stayed at ~30PSI.

This is a different lot, much larger, much higher speeds, very abrasive and loose surface.

Run 1 (spin @ ~:40)

Run 2 (spin @ ~:50)

Run 3

Run 4 (spin @ ~:54)

Run 5

Camera stopped cooperating for the last 3 runs.
Run 6-7 were clean, Run 8 was clean through the lights but then had the epic spin when I tried to stay in it and catch a slide. Really big spin!

So yea, I average about 1 spin for every 2 runs. This car makes me look like an arseclown out there.


EDIT:

Pictures!