Michelin PS2 vs Continental SC2
02-17-2011, 03:50 PM
#31
As i understood it it was 100kg max see below
Weights
Empty weight per DIN
Carrera 4 1450 kg
Carrera 2 1350 kg
And are you talking push on acceleration or deceleration Makmov? I think this is where we are talking chalk and cheese as we say.
Correct me if i'm wrong: The C2 will oversteer in lift off deceleration on high speed and medium speed turns, where as the C4 will apply the diff to prevent this and reverse this symptom to promote understeer. (unless you press the brake)
As i see it acceleration understeer i can handle, as i just have to be patient on the throttle but high speed lift off deceleration oversteer is another matter, (that leads you to right your car off on a country road). Thats why i am so cautious about the best approach. The C2 may not want more front end grip like Boxsey says as this may increase oversteer a little. but curious about the 40mm extra tyre on the road for the C4. So If i only experience understeer on deceleration (as i am patient at applying the throttle) the 225 or 205 won't make a difference as its the accelerometers that control the diff on deceleration? And as i am seeking any reduction in unsprung weight and more nimble steering i thought the 205 might be the option.
What i mean is; the deceleration understeer is not controlled by the tyre width on the front, but by the diff/PDAS system, is that right?
If i have this totally wrong then forgive me, as its just how i am reading this.
Weights
Empty weight per DIN
Carrera 4 1450 kg
Carrera 2 1350 kg
And are you talking push on acceleration or deceleration Makmov? I think this is where we are talking chalk and cheese as we say.
Correct me if i'm wrong: The C2 will oversteer in lift off deceleration on high speed and medium speed turns, where as the C4 will apply the diff to prevent this and reverse this symptom to promote understeer. (unless you press the brake)
As i see it acceleration understeer i can handle, as i just have to be patient on the throttle but high speed lift off deceleration oversteer is another matter, (that leads you to right your car off on a country road). Thats why i am so cautious about the best approach. The C2 may not want more front end grip like Boxsey says as this may increase oversteer a little. but curious about the 40mm extra tyre on the road for the C4. So If i only experience understeer on deceleration (as i am patient at applying the throttle) the 225 or 205 won't make a difference as its the accelerometers that control the diff on deceleration? And as i am seeking any reduction in unsprung weight and more nimble steering i thought the 205 might be the option.
What i mean is; the deceleration understeer is not controlled by the tyre width on the front, but by the diff/PDAS system, is that right?
If i have this totally wrong then forgive me, as its just how i am reading this.
02-17-2011, 04:04 PM
#32
let see, well okay I am coming up with this
Curb weight (to DIN 70020): 3,031 lb/1,375 kg (C2); 3,100 lb/1,406 kg (Tiptronic), 3,252 lb (1,475 kg) (C4)
So maybe not quite 300 pounds.
Hard acceleration on a slow tight corner the push is real noticeable.
Decel, for a 911 a C4 feels very balanced to me. A little wiggle in the rear sometimes over bumps but much more planted than a C2, which would over steering on the same corner same speeds.
I have pushed just about to the limits of traction on a high speed corner and it's the rear that wants to come around even on a C4.
I haven't noticed any drift off on decel. The C4 is one of the most pointy 911 on a high speed turn I have driven.
I will have to look and see what tire sizes are on my car.
But I believe they are, almost certain
205/50/17
255/40/17
I haven't ever felt the AWD getting obtrusive even on wet. Most everyone I have talked thinks it's the additional weight more than anything.
Curb weight (to DIN 70020): 3,031 lb/1,375 kg (C2); 3,100 lb/1,406 kg (Tiptronic), 3,252 lb (1,475 kg) (C4)
So maybe not quite 300 pounds.
Hard acceleration on a slow tight corner the push is real noticeable.
Decel, for a 911 a C4 feels very balanced to me. A little wiggle in the rear sometimes over bumps but much more planted than a C2, which would over steering on the same corner same speeds.
I have pushed just about to the limits of traction on a high speed corner and it's the rear that wants to come around even on a C4.
I haven't noticed any drift off on decel. The C4 is one of the most pointy 911 on a high speed turn I have driven.
I will have to look and see what tire sizes are on my car.
But I believe they are, almost certain
205/50/17
255/40/17
I haven't ever felt the AWD getting obtrusive even on wet. Most everyone I have talked thinks it's the additional weight more than anything.
02-17-2011, 04:30 PM
#33
Thanks Makmov really appreciate your time, along with everyone else. 
I am waaay to obsessive about everything on cars, including something as small as the tyres size on the front of the car and understanding the options, but thats just me!!
I am waaay to obsessive about everything on cars, including something as small as the tyres size on the front of the car and understanding the options, but thats just me!!
02-17-2011, 04:56 PM
#34
nothing wrong with have a complete and in depth understanding of things.
02-17-2011, 06:38 PM
#35
Nordschleife Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I64f-8nUNkU
02-17-2011, 09:42 PM
#36
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I wanted some N rated tyres myself so I got a set of S-02's for road use. I'm glad I did it so I got it out of my system (and I use PZero Corsas on the track so they are my everyday tyre) but the S-02's are not nearly as good as the non-N RE 050's I had before. For a similar price I'd have no doubts RE 050's all the way! Just my 2 cents, I don't want to start an N rated vs non rated discussion.
I visited the winemakers at Fontodi and Isole e Olena, and must say that I really enjoyed my time there with the food and wine.
Nice driving roads around the hills of Tuscany too.
02-18-2011, 11:41 AM
#37
Racer
Next time drop by, we make wine ourselves.
02-18-2011, 03:27 PM
#38
Here's some of those 2WD oversteer moments for your entertainment. You'll probably be glad of your understeer after you see these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I64f-8nUNkU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I64f-8nUNkU
I think i will make my decision on the tyres after the track day this week. Probably going back to the 205 front.
Unless i'm convinced otherwise...
02-18-2011, 04:55 PM
#39
Nordschleife Master
I agree that he made all the moments look easy and controlled but that's mostly because they're power on oversteer rather than the panic induced lift off version. I think it's a good example video of how fun a 964 can be on track and how well they respond to the right inputs, whether it be a C2 or C4. However, I should add the caveat that the guy in the video knows a thing or two about racing 911s.
02-22-2011, 06:27 PM
#40
I have pretty much made up my mind, but i wanted to share something about N rated tyres i just noticed. I always thought the N rated tyres were for the 911 specifically, due to its characteristics of high heat cycles and weight etc. the view being this may be beneficial, not essential but possibly beneficial.
I then look in the 2008 list of approved tyres by Porsche and look on the list to see the Michelin, Bridgestones, Continental and Pirelli tyres, everything is present and correct in my mind at this point for the 964 in 16" and 17". I have the 225/45R17 on the front in SO2 bridgstone N2 rated and notice not only are they not approved for my car but they are approved for the 944 which has the engine at the wrong end! Also the 16" tyres approved for the 964 are the same tyres approved for the 944! Surely if these tyres are reasonably spec'd to the car then a 911 and 944 would be different approved tyres, otherwise its no different to a 911 and a 3series BMW tyre for example?
I then think ok the standard 205/50R17 and 255/40R17 Continentals are approved I then scan to see that the same tyre for the 964 RS N2 spec Continental are also ok for the 993 S 97/98 models?
I am way more confused than i was at the start
I know its not fully relevant for me as i don't have the space, skill or money to exploit the chassis and the tyres on a daily basis but still interesting anyway.
Any N rated experts care to shed any light on the matter?
I then look in the 2008 list of approved tyres by Porsche and look on the list to see the Michelin, Bridgestones, Continental and Pirelli tyres, everything is present and correct in my mind at this point for the 964 in 16" and 17". I have the 225/45R17 on the front in SO2 bridgstone N2 rated and notice not only are they not approved for my car but they are approved for the 944 which has the engine at the wrong end! Also the 16" tyres approved for the 964 are the same tyres approved for the 944! Surely if these tyres are reasonably spec'd to the car then a 911 and 944 would be different approved tyres, otherwise its no different to a 911 and a 3series BMW tyre for example?
I then think ok the standard 205/50R17 and 255/40R17 Continentals are approved I then scan to see that the same tyre for the 964 RS N2 spec Continental are also ok for the 993 S 97/98 models?
I am way more confused than i was at the start
I know its not fully relevant for me as i don't have the space, skill or money to exploit the chassis and the tyres on a daily basis but still interesting anyway.
Any N rated experts care to shed any light on the matter?
Last edited by Unkle; 03-13-2011 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Edited to remove my errors
02-22-2011, 06:30 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
02-22-2011, 06:33 PM
#42
I have pretty much made up my mind, but i wanted to share something about N rated tyres i just noticed. I always thought the N rated tyres were for the 911 specifically, due to its characteristics of high heat cycles and weight etc. the view being this may be beneficial, not essential but possibly beneficial.
I then look in the 2008 list of approved tyres by Porsche and look on the list to see the Michelin, Bridgestones, Continental and Pirelli tyres, everything is present and correct in my mind at this point for the 964 in 16" and 17". I have the 225/45R17 on the front in SO2 bridgstone N2 rated and notice not only are they not approved for my car but they are approved for the 944 which has the engine at the wrong end! Also the 16" tyres approved for the 964 are the same tyres approved for the 944! Surely if these tyres are reasonably spec'd to the car then a 911 and 944 would be different approved tyres, otherwise its no different to a 911 and a 3series BMW tyre for example?
I then think ok the standard 205/50R17 and 255/40R17 Continentals are approved but check and notice they are only approved for the RS (perhaps being lighter the Conti has a thinner side wall) so perhaps i shouldn't use this on the 964 C4 being the heavier of the RS C2 and C4.
The final thing i noticed is the Continentals that are ok for the 964 RS N2 spec are also ok for the 993 S 97/98 models? But not the C2 or C4 964??
I am way more confused than i was at the start now
I know its not fully relevant for me as i don't have the space, skill or money to exploit the chassis and the tyres on a daily basis but interesting anyway. Any N rated experts care to shed any light on the matter?
I then look in the 2008 list of approved tyres by Porsche and look on the list to see the Michelin, Bridgestones, Continental and Pirelli tyres, everything is present and correct in my mind at this point for the 964 in 16" and 17". I have the 225/45R17 on the front in SO2 bridgstone N2 rated and notice not only are they not approved for my car but they are approved for the 944 which has the engine at the wrong end! Also the 16" tyres approved for the 964 are the same tyres approved for the 944! Surely if these tyres are reasonably spec'd to the car then a 911 and 944 would be different approved tyres, otherwise its no different to a 911 and a 3series BMW tyre for example?
I then think ok the standard 205/50R17 and 255/40R17 Continentals are approved but check and notice they are only approved for the RS (perhaps being lighter the Conti has a thinner side wall) so perhaps i shouldn't use this on the 964 C4 being the heavier of the RS C2 and C4.
The final thing i noticed is the Continentals that are ok for the 964 RS N2 spec are also ok for the 993 S 97/98 models? But not the C2 or C4 964??
I am way more confused than i was at the start now
I know its not fully relevant for me as i don't have the space, skill or money to exploit the chassis and the tyres on a daily basis but interesting anyway. Any N rated experts care to shed any light on the matter?
Last edited by Makmov; 02-22-2011 at 06:54 PM.
02-22-2011, 09:22 PM
#43
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I have pretty much made up my mind, but i wanted to share something about N rated tyres i just noticed. I always thought the N rated tyres were for the 911 specifically, due to its characteristics of high heat cycles and weight etc. the view being this may be beneficial, not essential but possibly beneficial.
I then look in the 2008 list of approved tyres by Porsche and look on the list to see the Michelin, Bridgestones, Continental and Pirelli tyres, everything is present and correct in my mind at this point for the 964 in 16" and 17". I have the 225/45R17 on the front in SO2 bridgstone N2 rated and notice not only are they not approved for my car but they are approved for the 944 which has the engine at the wrong end! Also the 16" tyres approved for the 964 are the same tyres approved for the 944! Surely if these tyres are reasonably spec'd to the car then a 911 and 944 would be different approved tyres, otherwise its no different to a 911 and a 3series BMW tyre for example?
I then think ok the standard 205/50R17 and 255/40R17 Continentals are approved but check and notice they are only approved for the RS (perhaps being lighter the Conti has a thinner side wall) so perhaps i shouldn't use this on the 964 C4 being the heavier of the RS C2 and C4. I scan to see that the same tyre for the 964 RS N2 spec Continental are also ok for the 993 S 97/98 models? But not the C2 or C4 964??
I am way more confused than i was at the start
I know its not fully relevant for me as i don't have the space, skill or money to exploit the chassis and the tyres on a daily basis but still interesting anyway.
Any N rated experts care to shed any light on the matter?
I then look in the 2008 list of approved tyres by Porsche and look on the list to see the Michelin, Bridgestones, Continental and Pirelli tyres, everything is present and correct in my mind at this point for the 964 in 16" and 17". I have the 225/45R17 on the front in SO2 bridgstone N2 rated and notice not only are they not approved for my car but they are approved for the 944 which has the engine at the wrong end! Also the 16" tyres approved for the 964 are the same tyres approved for the 944! Surely if these tyres are reasonably spec'd to the car then a 911 and 944 would be different approved tyres, otherwise its no different to a 911 and a 3series BMW tyre for example?
I then think ok the standard 205/50R17 and 255/40R17 Continentals are approved but check and notice they are only approved for the RS (perhaps being lighter the Conti has a thinner side wall) so perhaps i shouldn't use this on the 964 C4 being the heavier of the RS C2 and C4. I scan to see that the same tyre for the 964 RS N2 spec Continental are also ok for the 993 S 97/98 models? But not the C2 or C4 964??
I am way more confused than i was at the start
I know its not fully relevant for me as i don't have the space, skill or money to exploit the chassis and the tyres on a daily basis but still interesting anyway.
Any N rated experts care to shed any light on the matter?
All I can say is that I'm pretty sceptical about N Spec. I'm meeting up with the head for after sales in Porsche Asia-Pac, and will check with him.
One other thing on Japaense N-Spec tyres - apparently there are only 3 tyre manufacturers, but multiple brands. One of the manufacturers is Sumitomo, who may have N-spec info, but who doesn't sell such spec tyres.
03-05-2011, 01:22 PM
#44
Thought i would just reply with an update
Picked up the Michelin PS2 today, and decided to go for the 205/50R17 on the front instead of the other C4 option and the 255/40R17 rear. All i can say its like night and day compared to the Bridgestone SO2. I had an almost diff/wheel bearing noise when cornering which has now gone, the car doesn't hunt down the tram/lorry lines in the road eager to pull the steering left or right, it just stays straight now. I know this is partly due to the original 205 fitment compared to the 225 front tyres but i also think its due partly to the tread pattern along with the noise as i had been advised . The SO2 always seemed an old style tread pattern that has been replaced by newer technology tread layout from some manufacturers ie Michelin, or Continental, still very good though.
The PS2 also have a very deep bead wall to prevent wheel damage and this gives a different profile to the tyre, they is no bulge like the standard car tyre or SO2 but a stretched look taper to the tyres front and back. This may have a significant improvement on direction change, as it has been suggested with the PS2, as the side walls are pointing inwards towards the outer edge (if that makes sense) don't know, but i will need to explore further when its dry. I guess we all have personal preferences and the SO2 are a great tyre but not for me. I kept the fronts as they have 6mm tread and were only a year old, and with stick them in a certain online auction house when i get time.
Thanks for all your help as always rennlisters
Car has 118k miles, so it will be interesting to see how long they last.
Picked up the Michelin PS2 today, and decided to go for the 205/50R17 on the front instead of the other C4 option and the 255/40R17 rear. All i can say its like night and day compared to the Bridgestone SO2. I had an almost diff/wheel bearing noise when cornering which has now gone, the car doesn't hunt down the tram/lorry lines in the road eager to pull the steering left or right, it just stays straight now. I know this is partly due to the original 205 fitment compared to the 225 front tyres but i also think its due partly to the tread pattern along with the noise as i had been advised . The SO2 always seemed an old style tread pattern that has been replaced by newer technology tread layout from some manufacturers ie Michelin, or Continental, still very good though.
The PS2 also have a very deep bead wall to prevent wheel damage and this gives a different profile to the tyre, they is no bulge like the standard car tyre or SO2 but a stretched look taper to the tyres front and back. This may have a significant improvement on direction change, as it has been suggested with the PS2, as the side walls are pointing inwards towards the outer edge (if that makes sense) don't know, but i will need to explore further when its dry. I guess we all have personal preferences and the SO2 are a great tyre but not for me. I kept the fronts as they have 6mm tread and were only a year old, and with stick them in a certain online auction house when i get time.
Thanks for all your help as always rennlisters
Car has 118k miles, so it will be interesting to see how long they last.
Last edited by Unkle; 03-06-2011 at 12:44 PM.
