I test drove a 1990 baltic blue C4 the other day and liked it so much I scheduled a PPI for Monday. The car is a 5sp with 115000 miles for 15k and change, however it has an incomplete service history and being a '90 lacks the gasket of the later models. Now in doing my research of back buyers guides some people say to stay away from both no gasket 964s and cars with incomplete records.

However the car looks great, felt great, and just fit like broken in baseball glove. So nice! One owner for the first 10 years. One owner for the last 5 and half years and garaged that whole time, but the four years in between there seem to have been a few sales including one EBay transaction. Would a solid PPI trump your reservations about the gasket and the incomplete service history?

Thanks in advance!

batty

ps. FWIW this would be my primary vehicle in winter and then a subdued and elegant alternative to the Spyder in summer. Could handle having it in for a month or two every other summer to get some preventative maintainence done.

 

I would say yes.

Records are always great, but sometimes they just are not available.

I am going to look at a car tomorrow.

The dealer who the owner bought the car from said there was tons of records for the car but could not release them due to privacy laws.

I only got a partial history on the car I currently own.

Even with records it doesn't mean something has been done, it doesn't need any thing, or it hasn't been neglected.

A car with a stack of records could break in half tomorrow, drop a valve, ... any number of things.

Likewise, without records it doesn't mean something needs doing, or it's been not taken care of.

And one without records could go forever without a hiccup.

Experience goes a long way in these situations, and you can kind of tell if the car has been upkept well, taken care of and the owner stayed on top of things.

The gasket deal is not life or death of a 964. Even without the gasket update there is no performace gains or losses. It was to prevent some oil weeping.

Your PPI, if done well, should tell you enough about the car to make a educated choice.

 

Hi, just my thoughts on buying cars

Looking at the sketchy history - from the view of the car for sale.
I wouldn't look at a car without service history or with bad service history in recent years, but if you put the word "extensive" instead of "complete" in sales literature (as many dealers do) I think it won't hurt the resale value too much, you see although you may be happy to take a punt on something, I would also always be thinking about a cars resale value. For example, would you have to drop it well under other asking prices due to the history that you didn't think was a big issue?

The history
The firsts owners history is pretty irrelevant as its so long ago to affect your vehicle as it stands now IMO, unless it was something very major. For me it would be a combination of the bills from the 5year owner and the PPI. The sketchy history in between could have been more than corrected by the last owner for 5 years providing he has done more than a few oil changes and plugs. That would be a fair time to any previous mistreatment to show and be corrected.

But you are buying a 20 year old car, as i'm sure you are aware.

So for me (if i got past the sketchy history) I would only be interested in the last 5 years, the bills, the parts changed above and beyond a normal service, was a reputable garage used? How cheap are the tyres? i.e. Do you get a sense that the owner has spent money or cut corners, and the PPI.

 

My answer to your question would be: yes. If you're confident enough in what you've seen so far to get a PPI, I would think of an inspection as "in lieu of" a complete history.

These cars are all getting pretty long in the tooth, and I think expecting to find a FSH on one of them is probably increasingly unrealistic. Once you look at a few of these, you get a general sense of whether the car's been neglected or not. Sounds like this car's already made it through that gate for you. The PPI will smoke out whether your confidence is well-placed. The no-gasket issue is just one small component in the checklist, IMO. Gasket or no, if it ain't leaking like a sieve at that joint right now, it probably isn't going to start suddenly.

If this turns out to be an overall nice car and you like it, I would jump on it.
$15K would be a very attractive price for that car in good condition, in my opinion.

 

These cars are 20+ years old. Missing records going back thru 2 or more owners is not a surprise. What difference would it make to know a oil change was done 15 years ago.

 

You drove it and it drove well.

If you can, show up for the PPI and get under it and take a look - if it looks good and passes the PPI - buy it

If it hasn't been in a major accident, drove well and the PPI disclosed zero issues - buy it

At $15K, you will be able to drive 20K miles and if you take care you will be able to sell it for what you bought it for if all goes well.

Don't get caught up with the purest point of view, it's nice that a car has a complete service history, not all of them have it, a car could have a complete history and if the work was done by an idiot, you will a well documented abortion on your hands. Drive it, get it inspected and take a close look at the body, and create a service history for the next owner.

John

 

If PPI is good, Buy IT!!

The gasket thing is overblown. I have a 110,000 mile early 91 (never been re-built) with very minor seepage on the left bank. 2-3 drops now and then on the oil tray, garage floor. My mechanic seems to believe in the non gasket design, so much so that he would re-build properly without the gasket, when the car is ready. Geoffrey Ring also discusses this issue somewhere here on Rennlist and explains this in much better detail than I can offer. AFAIC, if it's not leaking a little, it's not being driven properly

Best of luck!!!

 

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I must admit to getting a bit giddy in anticipation of the PPI tomorrow. Staying up til dawn to look through every post of the "Random 964 Picture" thread and "Most beautiful" didn't help quell the anticipation much either.

A few follow ups. The seller did mention a small leak in their ad, and I'm hoping its of the standard "weeping" variety vs. "spewing". I can live with the former but the latter would be a deal breaker. Unkle, I always try to factor in reselling as I know I have the P-car bug for life, so there's going to have to be some swapping around of something every 4 or 5 years. If there isn't some unknown accident/major repair uncovered tomorrow, I'm thinking (much like campoj2 said) I can make up the difference with excessively comprehensive documents/photo history of all work done in my time with the car. At 4 or 5k thousand miles of driving a year for 5 years, I will still be below 150,00 miles if i decide to sell then, and I think I should be able to recover most of my purchase price but probably not the 1-2k a year in upkeep and preventative maintenance.

The car definitely looks like the original metallic job but not so sure its baltic anymore, seems a little darker, and ideas anyone? Can't wait to dig up the paint code tomorrow. The car fax and the owner both say no accidents, but we'll see what the PPI says. The car has mismatched tires kumhos/toyo and that gives me a little pause. The tires are all 4+ years old and that gives me pause too. Though they look in fine shape still with a fair amount of tread surprisingly. Either way, I'd replace them all first thing if I get the car.

Here's a little excerpt that the owner sent me detailing his time with the car; if anybody can read anything else into this feel free to pass it along. Thanks again!

 

4 year old tires are no problem if the tread is good.

 

+1

 

The age of the tires is not a safety concern. Mismatched tires always give me heartburn. I would budget in a nice new set of 4 asap, especially if you're going to drive it in the winter (where are you located?).

Sounds like he A) understands a Porsche, and B) did what was necessary on his watch, without shooting the moon. Nothing wrong with that. Chris's is a good, respected indy Porsche shop. I always figure, even if he did some stuff himself, if he had a knowledgeable shop looking over his shoulder and probably pointing out trouble spots or necessary maintenance (and he addressed it), that's as good as it gets.

So far, so good. Best of luck!

 

Yeah, I've heard good things about Chris's shop. I'm in Seattle but would like to be able to take the car up and over the mountains if need be, hence the 4. PPI starts within the hour and I'm going to go down and watch the whole process. Hopefully everything checks out. I'll let you all know later on in the day. Thanks for all the encouragement!

neill

 

Ok. That didn't turn out so well. Needs lots (I should have known). Needs top end, leaks a lot. Valve guides. Two broken cv joints. Needs pads. Rotors. Brake flush. Transmission fluid. Tires, fronts are 2001. Suspension, brake and oil lines all original and need to be updated. Cracked lens front and back and a half a dozen other maladies including possible clutch and flywheel.

And yet, with all that, its still a nice car in its own way. Hopefully some one can get it cheap enough to put in the $11-15k the shop thinks it will take to make the thing run right.

I feel for the owner who is a very nice guy, but ultimately I think he's going to pay the price on the sales end, for saving some money on upkeep over the years. Still the car has a beautiful body though, hopefully someone fixes it up.

Thanks again for the support and enthusiasm, after considering a 997S and then a 993, I've really come to appreciate the charms of the 964!

 

Sounds like it was well worth while having the ppi done. A good rule of thumb for checking a 964 has been properly maintained over its life is that it has a pile of bills that when spread out, would easily cover the floor of a small room.

 

(Heh. Boxsey's Small Room Coverage Rule.)

Spit-balling an estimate, here, but that trouble list is up to $2k in parts.
That wouldn't be a stopper, exactly, for me.
But that tranny-related stuff is a wild card I wouldn't know how to estimate.
It's something I'd have $5k held in reserve 'just in case'.

Sorry that you didn't happen upon a most-issues-settled car in your search.