Steve Wong Chip?
01-04-2010, 04:52 PM
#106
Instructor
chips light weight...
Thanks for the replies.
You all suggest not to go for the engine tuning as can´t be believed that it will achieve the promised 50 hp´s gain..
What would be your suggestions then? I have already started a civilized diet, with GT3 buckets, light weight inner doors, Rs flywheel, cat bypass... now I want to go to the next step and that's why the FVD kit was a good option, should i go for the Steve Wong chip only? does anyone know if this can work well with 98 octane european petrol?
thanks again
You all suggest not to go for the engine tuning as can´t be believed that it will achieve the promised 50 hp´s gain..
What would be your suggestions then? I have already started a civilized diet, with GT3 buckets, light weight inner doors, Rs flywheel, cat bypass... now I want to go to the next step and that's why the FVD kit was a good option, should i go for the Steve Wong chip only? does anyone know if this can work well with 98 octane european petrol?
thanks again
01-04-2010, 05:02 PM
#107
Rennlist Member
Sergi,
I would look at adding upgraded motor mounts to your already impressive modifications list. It tightens up the feel of the car and improves the shifting... I only experience a little more noise/vibration... might be hard to tell with the way you already have your car set up?!
Wevo m.m. installed - impressions
I would look at adding upgraded motor mounts to your already impressive modifications list. It tightens up the feel of the car and improves the shifting... I only experience a little more noise/vibration... might be hard to tell with the way you already have your car set up?!
Wevo m.m. installed - impressions
01-04-2010, 05:52 PM
#108
Race Car
I agree, I LOVE my Wevo mounts...they're SO purty! 
Sergi, so glad to see that you made it through all the "hyperbole" and the "abundance of ignorance" that this thread has yielded lately...some of us actually have some good input to share. ...I'm not saying I do!!
Yes, whilst online, it is important to figure out a baseline with regards to what to believe and what to act on when there is so much input on such a topic. ...as this topic has been beat to death on many occasion.
MY OPINION ON YOUR DIRECT QUESTION:
FVD is great stuff, but it's pricey as hell. I consider them the "dealership approved above average mods program", if you will. Their upgrades have been proven to be safe/reliable upgrades, at a premium. They're products are nice, look nice...but come at quite the price.
Most setups like the Vitesse, Autothority Mass-Flow, FVD and similar type "hot film" setups will yield a surprising amount of horsepower...best when ran in conjunction with the customer's vehicle on a dyno to "fine tune". Few solutions will yield a great amount of horsepower without making mods further down the line, namely, exhaust.
I had a friend who had some headwork done on his 964, I think the exhaust ports had the ceramic removed and he took his car up to Autothority and had them burn a chip for his car, with it on the dyno...I had the pleasure of taking a drive with him a few months later and I have to say, his car breathed quite well. He had a cat and seconday bypass, that's all for exhaust mods...I can't imagine how that car would feel with an AFM replacement system, coupled with the appropriate software - WOW!!
There are a few 964s on here that have done a hot film (AFM unit modification/replacement) coupled with an exhaust upgrade (if not already existing) and someone's software and they've yielded somewhere north of 270hp to the wheels...which IMHO would feel DAMN GOOD in a nice lightened 964.
If you want to do a moderate exhaust upgrade and a chip, you should be pretty content with the HP gains but like most, you will soon be seeking more "umph"...and that is a wallet emptying affair!
In racing, I want something that's a moderate to ideal upgrade that has an emphasis on RELIABILITY...on a 50 degree race day...on a 90+ degree race day...so I choose to go the chip/header route.
This is not to say some of the nicer AFM mod/replacement strategies out there aren't reliable...I would fathom a polite guess at the chance that most are...but they're expensive, plain and simple, for what you get out of them.
Bottom line is, it's damned expensive to get more HP out of an already efficient air pump that Porsche manufactures these days...it's ridiculous when compared to modding some other manufacturer's vehicles.
MY software isn't "optimized" for max HP, it's a good reliable tune, considering the mods I've made to the motor...on 93 pump gas. To go to software that requires 100 octane might lessen the reliability, IMHO, and again, it gets expensive when you're running $7 a gallon race fuel at the track.
BUT, you asked about an AFM mod/replacement setup and my short answer is: if you have the $$$$$$$$ to spare, take the time to research who is providing good customer service...take the time to figure out who might be having reliability issues, and if they have them...HOW do they make good with the customer?
More importantly...don't go with any company that's blowing up these expensive motors!
As far as lightening a 964 goes, it's a slippery slope...and it can get expensive. Start with getting a smaller/lighter battery and "trick" hold down, gutting some interior and replacing with lightweight carpet (car will get a little noisey) and ANY exhaust upgrade, I mean ANY will drop pounds off the rear of the car pretty quick.
If I wasn't worried about someone being up my **** on the track and/or the goofy PCA Stock Class rules, I'd remove the rear bumper rebar and get more weight off the rear, but for now, that nice piece of rule abiding "protection" will stay in place. Those bumper shocks weigh quite a bit as well, I've seen a few UK types and a few on this side of the pond go with the cup replacements, nice and pricey, but wouldn't we ALL love to have 'em!??
Sergi, so glad to see that you made it through all the "hyperbole" and the "abundance of ignorance" that this thread has yielded lately...some of us actually have some good input to share. ...I'm not saying I do!!
Yes, whilst online, it is important to figure out a baseline with regards to what to believe and what to act on when there is so much input on such a topic. ...as this topic has been beat to death on many occasion.
MY OPINION ON YOUR DIRECT QUESTION:
FVD is great stuff, but it's pricey as hell. I consider them the "dealership approved above average mods program", if you will. Their upgrades have been proven to be safe/reliable upgrades, at a premium. They're products are nice, look nice...but come at quite the price.
Most setups like the Vitesse, Autothority Mass-Flow, FVD and similar type "hot film" setups will yield a surprising amount of horsepower...best when ran in conjunction with the customer's vehicle on a dyno to "fine tune". Few solutions will yield a great amount of horsepower without making mods further down the line, namely, exhaust.
I had a friend who had some headwork done on his 964, I think the exhaust ports had the ceramic removed and he took his car up to Autothority and had them burn a chip for his car, with it on the dyno...I had the pleasure of taking a drive with him a few months later and I have to say, his car breathed quite well. He had a cat and seconday bypass, that's all for exhaust mods...I can't imagine how that car would feel with an AFM replacement system, coupled with the appropriate software - WOW!!
There are a few 964s on here that have done a hot film (AFM unit modification/replacement) coupled with an exhaust upgrade (if not already existing) and someone's software and they've yielded somewhere north of 270hp to the wheels...which IMHO would feel DAMN GOOD in a nice lightened 964.
If you want to do a moderate exhaust upgrade and a chip, you should be pretty content with the HP gains but like most, you will soon be seeking more "umph"...and that is a wallet emptying affair!
In racing, I want something that's a moderate to ideal upgrade that has an emphasis on RELIABILITY...on a 50 degree race day...on a 90+ degree race day...so I choose to go the chip/header route.
This is not to say some of the nicer AFM mod/replacement strategies out there aren't reliable...I would fathom a polite guess at the chance that most are...but they're expensive, plain and simple, for what you get out of them.
Bottom line is, it's damned expensive to get more HP out of an already efficient air pump that Porsche manufactures these days...it's ridiculous when compared to modding some other manufacturer's vehicles.
MY software isn't "optimized" for max HP, it's a good reliable tune, considering the mods I've made to the motor...on 93 pump gas. To go to software that requires 100 octane might lessen the reliability, IMHO, and again, it gets expensive when you're running $7 a gallon race fuel at the track.
BUT, you asked about an AFM mod/replacement setup and my short answer is: if you have the $$$$$$$$ to spare, take the time to research who is providing good customer service...take the time to figure out who might be having reliability issues, and if they have them...HOW do they make good with the customer?
More importantly...don't go with any company that's blowing up these expensive motors!
As far as lightening a 964 goes, it's a slippery slope...and it can get expensive. Start with getting a smaller/lighter battery and "trick" hold down, gutting some interior and replacing with lightweight carpet (car will get a little noisey) and ANY exhaust upgrade, I mean ANY will drop pounds off the rear of the car pretty quick.
If I wasn't worried about someone being up my **** on the track and/or the goofy PCA Stock Class rules, I'd remove the rear bumper rebar and get more weight off the rear, but for now, that nice piece of rule abiding "protection" will stay in place. Those bumper shocks weigh quite a bit as well, I've seen a few UK types and a few on this side of the pond go with the cup replacements, nice and pricey, but wouldn't we ALL love to have 'em!??
01-05-2010, 01:27 AM
#111
"There are a few 964s on here that have done a hot film (AFM unit modification/replacement) coupled with an exhaust upgrade (if not already existing) and someone's software and they've yielded somewhere north of 270hp to the wheels...which IMHO would feel DAMN GOOD in a nice lightened 964."
So, where're the data to support the air mass mod, i.e. exclusive of other
mods? Actually, there haven't been any posted which have isolated that
variable via reliable dyno tests. This was discussed extensively on this
forum before.
"someone's software"
And tell us all what you define as 'software' (another joke) and supposedly
what it does, since all these 'technical' terms, e.g. "somewhere north",
"feel DAMN GOOD", are being used. Those terms sound very impressive
(to some here), but I can't seem to find them in a engine thermodynamics
book like:
Energy Out = Energy In X Efficiency
In simple terms for simple minds, unless more fuel (energy) is input, e.g. turbo,
bigger bore, or the engine losses are reduced, no increase in energy (torque) results,
i.e. changing to a air mass versus an AFM has no real singular effect in energy output.
And on the subject of Porsche tuning:
Definition: 'Porsche Tuner' - One who does a Google search on 'tuning' and then:
1. Buys a $99 Win app to change a few map cells (software? - the biggest joke),
after copying another 'performance' chip
2. Buys an EPROM programmer on eBay for $49,
3. Goes to Fry's Electronics and buys chips for $2.49 each which are sold for 100X
4. Buys a website and posts a lot graphs and testimonials,
5. 'Casually' promotes on so-called 'technical' Porsche websites (Dark Side),
using buzz words which he and others don't really understand but sound good
6. Gets naive Porsche owners to evangelize the chip (no advertising/sponsor costs).
All the above requiring no real knowledge/investment except an ability to spew hyperbole
and finding the next one to be 'taken-down-the-path'. Kinda like the old 'snake oil' sales
of the past, or that fuel atomizer which increases gas mileage.
O.K., so let's see what's the next innuendo used to attack the messenger
and not address the issue, which is the typical style of many!
So, where're the data to support the air mass mod, i.e. exclusive of other
mods? Actually, there haven't been any posted which have isolated that
variable via reliable dyno tests. This was discussed extensively on this
forum before.
"someone's software"
And tell us all what you define as 'software' (another joke) and supposedly
what it does, since all these 'technical' terms, e.g. "somewhere north",
"feel DAMN GOOD", are being used. Those terms sound very impressive
(to some here), but I can't seem to find them in a engine thermodynamics
book like:
Energy Out = Energy In X Efficiency
In simple terms for simple minds, unless more fuel (energy) is input, e.g. turbo,
bigger bore, or the engine losses are reduced, no increase in energy (torque) results,
i.e. changing to a air mass versus an AFM has no real singular effect in energy output.
And on the subject of Porsche tuning:
Definition: 'Porsche Tuner' - One who does a Google search on 'tuning' and then:
1. Buys a $99 Win app to change a few map cells (software? - the biggest joke),
after copying another 'performance' chip
2. Buys an EPROM programmer on eBay for $49,
3. Goes to Fry's Electronics and buys chips for $2.49 each which are sold for 100X
4. Buys a website and posts a lot graphs and testimonials,
5. 'Casually' promotes on so-called 'technical' Porsche websites (Dark Side),
using buzz words which he and others don't really understand but sound good
6. Gets naive Porsche owners to evangelize the chip (no advertising/sponsor costs).
All the above requiring no real knowledge/investment except an ability to spew hyperbole
and finding the next one to be 'taken-down-the-path'. Kinda like the old 'snake oil' sales
of the past, or that fuel atomizer which increases gas mileage.
O.K., so let's see what's the next innuendo used to attack the messenger
and not address the issue, which is the typical style of many!
Last edited by Lorenfb; 01-05-2010 at 04:17 AM.
01-05-2010, 08:36 AM
#112
Nordschleife Master
My reading of the FVD description of their kit is that the claimed 50 hp is a combination of the kit, cat bypass and silencer bypass. They say that without the latter it is 25ish. So if you already have the two bypasses you already have an extra 25 hp. Adding the kit will then give you another 25 (not an additional 50).
01-05-2010, 09:08 AM
#113
Instructor
Hi Steve:
thanks for the clarification, yes I carry both bypasses. I didn't know that this was already giving me as much as 25 bhp, as well as giving me a huge weight saving... thanks for the good news!!!
So this means that my car is already 275 bhp and adding the chip will give me another 25 bhp and will achieve the desired 300 HP figure, can this be so easy? the problem is that the last 25 hp from FVD are 1200 € to start with...
911Jetta, I have been thinking about the suspension and motor mounts, Powerflex or some others, I already carry a front strut brace, red HR spring and dampers, RS geometries and ventilated discs all round with yellow Pagid pads. I haven't changed to RS sway bars yet...would the suspension and motor mounts make a big differnce to the precission quality?
Let me add some picture of the current state of my car, Engine and gt3 seat pictures are not from my car but mine looks exactly as this one as I have installed both mods during christma's.
thanks for the clarification, yes I carry both bypasses. I didn't know that this was already giving me as much as 25 bhp, as well as giving me a huge weight saving... thanks for the good news!!!
So this means that my car is already 275 bhp and adding the chip will give me another 25 bhp and will achieve the desired 300 HP figure, can this be so easy? the problem is that the last 25 hp from FVD are 1200 € to start with...
911Jetta, I have been thinking about the suspension and motor mounts, Powerflex or some others, I already carry a front strut brace, red HR spring and dampers, RS geometries and ventilated discs all round with yellow Pagid pads. I haven't changed to RS sway bars yet...would the suspension and motor mounts make a big differnce to the precission quality?
Let me add some picture of the current state of my car, Engine and gt3 seat pictures are not from my car but mine looks exactly as this one as I have installed both mods during christma's.
Last edited by sergiDA; 02-07-2011 at 04:32 AM.
01-05-2010, 11:33 AM
#114
Race Car
O.K., so let's see what's the next innuendo used to attack the messenger
and not address the issue, which is the typical style of many!
and not address the issue, which is the typical style of many!
I apologize if my nomenclature is adrift...by software, yes, I mean a chip...a remapped chip. So what if it's a $2.49 eprom remapped on a $49 eBay device?? ...as long as it works, gets reasonable dyno #s and when I monitor air/fuel ratio and ignition advance, all is within reasonable parameters. That's all Porsche had done to map their original spec on any Bosch Motronic and newer setup - right?
...although I agree that Bosch probably doesn't use a $49 device, acquired from eBay.
I have no desire to use jargon derived from engine technical manuals and the sort, I can pretty much disassemble and reassemble a Porsche 3.6, Chevy/Ford V-8, a Honda 4cyl., even an Audi/Volkswagen 5cyl. without much reference material on hand. I leave the tuning up to the "higher authority", I just make 'em run...it's a hobby, NOT a business, so NOTHING to promote here.
Hmmmm, in thinking back a few years...I believe I did assist in a couple of technical publications that made it into the mainstream book community, but then I might be fantasizing and being that I don't know what I'm talking about, it was all just a dream.
I don't have the time to reference much, although I make the time to call out a ****** like you.
You and your adopted "keyboard bravery/brevity" just sucks...I'll bet you wait, between encounters with KY and switching hands to respond to my useless drivel.
SergiDA, I sincerely doubt you are at 275hp, probably more like 235-245hp with your current setup. You could probably achieve 275hp with the FVD setup and some tuning...but I venture to say those #s might be difficult to achieve without a more aggressive exhaust setup. Again, it's going to cost BIG $$$$$$$ to achieve those numbers, there's no 'free lunch' with regards to HP in most German powerplants, not to mention Porsche.
To make numbers towards 300hp would require some headwork and the like.
Nice looking car BTW, SergiDa...sharp...everytime I see your signature it gives me flashbacks to the Christmas/New Years I spent in Barcelona, 1992 - you guys really know how to party!
Last edited by Jeff Curtis; 01-05-2010 at 11:04 PM.
01-05-2010, 02:12 PM
#115
Nordschleife Master
Hi Steve:
thanks for the clarification, yes I carry both bypasses. I didn't know that this was already giving me as much as 25 bhp, as well as giving me a huge weight saving... thanks for the good news!!!
So this means that my car is already 275 bhp and adding the chip will give me another 25 bhp and will achieve the desired 300 HP figure, can this be so easy? the problem is that the last 25 hp from FVD are 1200 € to start with...
thanks for the clarification, yes I carry both bypasses. I didn't know that this was already giving me as much as 25 bhp, as well as giving me a huge weight saving... thanks for the good news!!!
So this means that my car is already 275 bhp and adding the chip will give me another 25 bhp and will achieve the desired 300 HP figure, can this be so easy? the problem is that the last 25 hp from FVD are 1200 € to start with...
"Power increase up to 36 kW (50 PS).
In order to gain the full 50PS you must use a 100 Cell Sport Cat or Cat Bypass in conjunction with a Cup Pipe or Dual Sport Exhaust.
Gains with strictly LBII kit are 25-30 PS
Kit includes:
Air flow meter, FVD Tuning-Chip, Air temperature sensor, Modified airbox, K&N airfilter.
Requires 98 Octane in Europe
Requires 93 Octane in the U.S."
From the above they are saying that 25ish comes from the their kit and 25 from the exhaust mods. Whether they are right to say that 25 comes from the exhaust mods is a matter of debate. I've seen figures of between 5 and 15 hp quoted for a cat bypass and between 5 and 10 hp for a primary bypass, quoted on various forums.
Personally I have no power figures for my own exhaust mods (only a cup pipe in my case) as I've never been interested in putting mine on a dyno. My butt dyno has always been enough for me to decide if a mod has been worthwhile. This has always been more noticeable to me when taking some weight out e.g. after I removed some sound proofing, took out the rear seats and fitting Recaro PPs.
01-05-2010, 03:01 PM
#116
Nordschleife Master
Needlessly provocative tone used above.
(And trying not counter my own caution too much, I'd say some messenger's delivery do deserve getting kicked down a hole.)
(And trying not counter my own caution too much, I'd say some messenger's delivery do deserve getting kicked down a hole.)
01-05-2010, 10:20 PM
#117
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
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[QUOTE=Jeff Curtis;7196532]How's THIS for an innuendo? - YOU ARE A D___.
Jeff,
I, one time, thought you rational. Congenial. Certainly, not vulgar.
Jeff,
I, one time, thought you rational. Congenial. Certainly, not vulgar.
01-05-2010, 10:24 PM
#118
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Very nice looking car. Noticed your heater bypass. That working out okay? No impact on hot engine time? What's the intake looking thing on the right? An extension to the airbox?
A good friend's daughter spent the fall semester in Barcelona - loved it.
Lorenfb - you need to mellow out.
A good friend's daughter spent the fall semester in Barcelona - loved it.
Lorenfb - you need to mellow out.
01-05-2010, 11:03 PM
#119
Race Car
Jeff,
I, one time, thought you rational. Congenial. Certainly, not vulgar.
I, one time, thought you rational. Congenial. Certainly, not vulgar.
You're right, I think I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today after a rough (busy) night at work and certain someone's assinine reply just hit me wrong - he wins.
...and leave it to an online friend to dial me back to earth so I realize the err of my ways - thank you.
I grow tired of trying to put in my "two cents" and then stomaching someone who decides to be negative, condescending, insulting, etc. on a public forum - I have VERY little tolerance for that. I don't pick fights on here, I don't slander anyone, I do, however...enjoy a good innuendo now and then.
Lorenfb, your carefully worded replies, cloaked as intelligent bantor/useful input is offensive to many. Your attempts to somewhat "save the world from itself" are failing...simply because of it's delivery.
I understand your mindset is that generally, people are ignorant, and they'll spend their money on anything that has a positive stigma attached to it - EX: Most everyone claims that Steve's chips provide a nice/reliable HP increase, YOU don't think so or apparently, empiracle (SP?) evidence is not enough, the "butt dyno" is not enough...so you reply with sledge hammer in hand, vice choosing a "socially acceptable" reply.
Technical forums, for the most part, are VERY useful tools in determining the "cool" things to do to your car, the advisable "you fix it" route and what will likely work out with regards to "bang for your buck" when speaking of modifications to one's vehicle. That's about the best "sum it all up" statement I can dredge up at the moment...so bear with me.
NO ONE on here is the Pied Piper, leading the lemmings to drown...much of what you read here is from experience, although some is heresay...and a good portion of those "I heard a friend say...I heard that..." statements should warrant a fair amount of "caveat emptor" in one's mind.
If someone is fool enough to simply ask, "what's the best mod for my 964" as a newbie, (a new forum member and/or Porsche owner) without reading this or some of the other great forums out there, then they are pretty much asking to spin the roulette wheel. If someone made it all the way here, (to the almighty Rennlist) I would think them somewhat resourceful...how they decide to go about doing business, educating themselves and/or sharing their knowledge is up to them.
Your average person can figure out that they need to be civil on a public forum...most will figure out the tone and sense of humor their colleagues possess...and most will succeed in making friends on here.
The route that a handful of people have chosen on this board is just heinous...I have a hard time understanding why they continue to log on, spew forth flames, insulting other member's intelligence and the like...it's simply beyond my scope of understanding.
With that said, I apologize for replying as I have.
On the other hand, NO pun intended...Lorenfb - knock it off, THINK before you type...ask yourself, "could more than 10% of my forum coherts take what I'm about to type the wrong way?" - I'll try and do the same.
Last edited by Jeff Curtis; 01-05-2010 at 11:25 PM.
01-05-2010, 11:43 PM
#120
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
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What's so vulgar about calling someone a "DorK"?
You're right, I think I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today after a rough (busy) night at work and certain someone's assinine reply just hit me wrong - he wins.
...and leave it to an online friend to dial me back to earth so I realize the err of my ways - thank you.
I grow tired of trying to put in my "two cents" and then stomaching someone who decides to be negative, condescending, insulting, etc. on a public forum - I have VERY little tolerance for that. I don't pick fights on here, I don't slander anyone, I do, however...enjoy a good innuendo now and then.
Lorenfb, your carefully worded replies, cloaked as intelligent bantor/useful input is offensive to many. Your attempts to somewhat "save the world from itself" are failing...simply because of it's delivery.
I understand your mindset is that generally, people are ignorant, and they'll spend their money on anything that has a positive stigma attached to it - EX: Most everyone claims that Steve's chips provide a nice/reliable HP increase, YOU don't think so or apparently, empiracle (SP?) evidence is not enough, the "butt dyno" is not enough...so you reply with sledge hammer in hand, vice choosing a "socially acceptable" reply.
Technical forums, for the most part, are VERY useful tools in determining the "cool" things to do to your car, the advisable "you fix it" route and what will likely work out with regards to "bang for your buck" when speaking of modifications to one's vehicle. That's about the best "sum it all up" statement I can dredge up at the moment...so bear with me.
NO ONE on here is the Pied Piper, leading the lemmings to drown...much of what you read here is from experience, although some is heresay...and a good portion of those "I heard a friend say...I heard that..." statements should warrant a fair amount of "caveat emptor" in one's mind.
If someone is fool enough to simply ask, "what's the best mod for my 964" as a newbie, (a new forum member and/or Porsche owner) without reading this or some of the other great forums out there, then they are pretty much asking to spin the roulette wheel. If someone made it all the way here, (to the almighty Rennlist) I would think them somewhat resourceful...how they decide to go about doing business, educating themselves and/or sharing their knowledge is up to them.
Your average person can figure out that they need to be civil on a public forum...most will figure out the tone and sense of humor their colleagues possess...and most will succeed in making friends on here.
The route that a handful of people have chosen on this board is just heinous...I have a hard time understanding why they continue to log on, spew forth flames, insulting other member's intelligence and the like...it's simply beyond my scope of understanding.
With that said, I apologize for replying as I have - I have way too many friends on here that were egging me on and encouraging my "humorous/vulgar rants" by telling me how funny I was being, etc. - YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!! ...and you all should be ashamed of yourselves.
On the other hand, Lorenfb - knock it off, THINK before you type...ask yourself, "could more than 10% of my forum coherts take what I'm about to type the wrong way?" - I'll try and do the same.
You're right, I think I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today after a rough (busy) night at work and certain someone's assinine reply just hit me wrong - he wins.
...and leave it to an online friend to dial me back to earth so I realize the err of my ways - thank you.
I grow tired of trying to put in my "two cents" and then stomaching someone who decides to be negative, condescending, insulting, etc. on a public forum - I have VERY little tolerance for that. I don't pick fights on here, I don't slander anyone, I do, however...enjoy a good innuendo now and then.
Lorenfb, your carefully worded replies, cloaked as intelligent bantor/useful input is offensive to many. Your attempts to somewhat "save the world from itself" are failing...simply because of it's delivery.
I understand your mindset is that generally, people are ignorant, and they'll spend their money on anything that has a positive stigma attached to it - EX: Most everyone claims that Steve's chips provide a nice/reliable HP increase, YOU don't think so or apparently, empiracle (SP?) evidence is not enough, the "butt dyno" is not enough...so you reply with sledge hammer in hand, vice choosing a "socially acceptable" reply.
Technical forums, for the most part, are VERY useful tools in determining the "cool" things to do to your car, the advisable "you fix it" route and what will likely work out with regards to "bang for your buck" when speaking of modifications to one's vehicle. That's about the best "sum it all up" statement I can dredge up at the moment...so bear with me.
NO ONE on here is the Pied Piper, leading the lemmings to drown...much of what you read here is from experience, although some is heresay...and a good portion of those "I heard a friend say...I heard that..." statements should warrant a fair amount of "caveat emptor" in one's mind.
If someone is fool enough to simply ask, "what's the best mod for my 964" as a newbie, (a new forum member and/or Porsche owner) without reading this or some of the other great forums out there, then they are pretty much asking to spin the roulette wheel. If someone made it all the way here, (to the almighty Rennlist) I would think them somewhat resourceful...how they decide to go about doing business, educating themselves and/or sharing their knowledge is up to them.
Your average person can figure out that they need to be civil on a public forum...most will figure out the tone and sense of humor their colleagues possess...and most will succeed in making friends on here.
The route that a handful of people have chosen on this board is just heinous...I have a hard time understanding why they continue to log on, spew forth flames, insulting other member's intelligence and the like...it's simply beyond my scope of understanding.
With that said, I apologize for replying as I have - I have way too many friends on here that were egging me on and encouraging my "humorous/vulgar rants" by telling me how funny I was being, etc. - YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!! ...and you all should be ashamed of yourselves.
On the other hand, Lorenfb - knock it off, THINK before you type...ask yourself, "could more than 10% of my forum coherts take what I'm about to type the wrong way?" - I'll try and do the same.
You and the forum know me. Some times an advisory. Some times contentious.
Never vulgar.
Always looking toward truth. You've the same ability. Maybe more. But, perhaps of my age , the vulgar thoughts are lost. I believe you much better.