Dwane

Geoffrey and John, I would like to educate myself on these systems.(MAF and piggyback systems)
Where do I start looking for this info?
My goal is to run into Geoffrey and talk him to death.
later
Dwane

fast951

You are 100% correct. I will STOP!

fast951

A internet search will bring you more information that you care to know.
A fairly brief comparison between AFM and MAF is Here

springer3

Not true. I tested the Vittesse MAF. We live in the same town, and I came close to donating my car as the test mule when John decided to develop the 964 MAF. I would have bought one if only I found it produced any meaningful increase.

I was warned that the factory got most of the goodies from the 3.6 during development, and that MAF alone was not going to liberate any hidden power. That proved correct in side-by-side acceleration tests. Details were posted.

Vitesse has a lot of experience and a good reputation in the turbo community. His system lets you make engine modifications and get the necessary air flow and control changes for the full benefit. Kudos to him for that.

I have no explanation for the Vittesse customers claiming they measure 50 HP increases and more with only a bolt-in MAF swap and remap. The only way to see 50 HP is if the DME was in limp mode, or there was some other engine fault or dyno error. 9M gets it. They provide credible power increases, but you need to spend 10 X what the Vittesse MAF conversion costs.

Geoffrey

The factory did not "get most of the goodies" out of the 3.6l engines.

springer3

Sorry, you are correct. I meant cheap goodies.

fast951

Not True. The development was done before you came along. Your conclusion that there is no meaningful increase from the MAF kit is based on the side-by-side run. Could it be that the "other car" was in limp mode for whatever reason? I was not there, so I cannot comment on what took place!
However, you can see what actual users are experiencing, which contradicts your conclusion.

You were offered to run your car as a BEFORE, then install the MAF (at no cost to you) and dyno it again the same day the same dyno. YOU declined!
When Did you ever test the Vitesse MAF?

I never saw a single customer claim a 50HP increase just from the MAF. They all state the exhaust mods and flywheel mods when applicable.
Vitesse NEVER claimed a 50HP increase or ANY xHP increase!! What we have presented is the BEFORE and AFTER, where the dyno showed performance gains. Any person who thinks every engine will make the SAME HP as another engine obviously has no experience! HP output varies based on the "health" of the engine.

Vitesse provided a before and after dyno chart based on a customer's car (in the presence of the customer). If anyone thinks the before run was in a "limp mode", go dyno your car in limp mode and SHOW us the same results as shown in the dyno chart as the base run. Anyone that knows anything about engines in general and 964 in particular, knows that a engine in "limp mode" will not produce the HP as shown in the BEFORE run.

Add to it, actual customers in different countries are seeing "similar" results as we have shown. Totally different dynos, different cars with similar mods, different people. Some customers have done exhaust mods, some have LWF. Customers reported gains when they installed the MAF kit..
If that is not proof, then Vitesse must be running the largest International Scam just to sell you a 964 MAF kit LOL.

Paul, since you are so sure the Vitesse MAF kit will not yield any performance gains, and it might be a hoke. And since you think the 964 in stock form is maxed out. Why not put your money where your mouth is? How about we run a dyno test, loser pays ALL expenses and loser donates a $1000 to the winner's favorite charity. You make sure your car is in top notch condition, no limp mode. You run it on the dyno in stock form for a BEFORE run. We install the MAF kit on your car, then do a run to show the AFTER. If there is any performance gains I win, if not you win. Obviously, the car must be in a good shape to start with!

BTW. I have much more to lose than you do, are you in? I have a single 964 MAF kit left, no plans to make another batch any time soon. So don't delay!

If you rather not mess with it, we will understand!

Ok, now I'll STOP.

springer3

You misrepresent what I am saying, which is simply that claims of 50 HP gains from the MAF alone are not credible. Here is what I actually said in the prior post:

"This tells me I can increase peak power by as much as 10 HP (a 4% increase) simply by running with no air filter. All other factors equal, the MAF and AFM curves actually cross each other several times. Peak power is equal. Of course our track speed depends on the average power across the RPM range. The MAF power averages about 4 HP greater (2%)."

By how much do you think you can beat this on a controlled test? The tests needs to be fair, with an independent witness. You get a customer car similar to mine (cup pipe, no other mods). We dyno both cars before and after the MAF installation. We correct the MAF dyno data up or down by the same percent as the increase or decrease in the dyno data from the mule (my car), which is not touched. We both burn pump gas from the same source. Nothing else gets changed on either car. MAF plus re-map are the only modification. Air filters on both cars are new for all runs. Throttle linkages are in adjustment to get full WOT, and resonance flaps are verified working on both cars.

You get less than a 10% increase and I win. Get more than a 20% increase, and you win. Between 10% and 20%, we all win.

I don't want your MAF kit on my car - please sell it to someone who will appreciate it.

springer3

John: your memory is failing. It was in June 2004. I responded to your thread entitled "MAF conversion for 964 Atlanta Area?" My message is still there if you want to do a search.

Sire

Springer3 I'm watching the thread but must say that you have such an opinion about the MAF and for me without the experience of the MAF. I you put you're mouth were it is, take the offer from Vitesse or just shut it.

I had an tuned chip witch gave me enough 279 HP but the kit from Vitesse brought it to 293 HP. And when ever i drive against other 964 basics they can't follow me in the straight line and acceleration from corners. The last time i had an race in 3th gear against an 993 from '97 he only saw mine Little behind.

springer3

I am glad you are pleased. You car was already tricked out if you were making 279 HP, already 13% over stock. Your car was evidently ready to take advantage of some more capacity. I have never said MAF was not the way to get more from modifications that detune the stock system or simple exceed its capacity. It is just that the stock system is already excellent, and the money will buy more elsewhere unless you are making big changes. This is a place to share information. I am selling nothing. I am trying to counter the hype that MAF is all you need to do to pull away from a 993.

I will take John's bet as long as the terms are fair and there is a referee. There is not a chance the MAF alone can raise power by 20%, and I would be astonished to see 10%. Look at Colin's charts - removing the air filter, a free mod, raised the power by 4%. Removing the restriction of the AFM increased the power by only 2% on average.

Sire

Good to hear, i hope you can find an referee, but i think an dyno before and after is the referee, and I hope John can find the time to show.

crg53

Now ,now gentlemen, we are loosing focus, my original question has been answered to my satisfaction, so lets put down the swords and all get along; this is a place for positive and knowledgeable feed back, and like in most things there are more than one answer to a question as well as several opinions.

N51

Paul,

I agree with you. My Protomotive built and tuned 3.8
is only able to creep out a measly ~9% over the numbers shown here.

Best,

fast951

Surprise surprise, Paul decided not to take me up on my offer. I wonder Why? LOL. I think people can figure it out on their own.