dertub

what's your opinion about the collectibility of the '92-'93 America roadster?
Thanks. Who has one?

hawk911

I brought up these cars a while ago, and those that have them see to be proud of them. Prices were in the 30s depending on condition.

elbeee964

umm, let's see...
less than a Speedster, little less than a RSA, less than a Jubilee, maybe par with a '94 C4 (ie, WB), more than a cab, and way, way, waaay less than an RS.

(And the Colorado Rockies take the series in 2020.)

cobalt

This has been discussed many times.

Buy it because you like it, it will only hold its value never make you rich. If you want a collectible car you should have started buying 73 RS's or 914-6's quite a while ago. Cars from the 90's might appreciate but never be a sound investment.

parsecnc4

+1

Still have mine since new and have taken considerable loss from original sticker. I probably will never live long enough to see prices creep up back to $90K+ for the AR. IMO, the '94 3.6T (excluding "S" and Flachbau) holds its price best from the 964/965 generation.

BHMav8r

I had one - deeply regret selling it...
I dont think it is all that collectible - other than it is a great car. It's a turbo cab w/o the turbo. I would price it accordingly - forget collectible.
Slower, little less desireable than a turbo - but insurance will be less and a little less maint than a turbo (although the top probably makes that a wash over a coup)
I dont drive fast, aggressive enough to really use the turbo - and I love a cab.

Trader220

There were three on eBay this week

Dr Strangelove

Might want to consider adding the Carrera Cup USA to that list from the 964/965 generation. In fact, I'd be very disappointed if my car only held its price.

-Bruce

TL-Register

Look at the increasing prices all over the world - which car should be more collectable ?

Speedsters are out of reach in Europa, and not longer cheap in USA nearly 1000 build and i fear no one can tell me what makes a speedster more collectable ? It cant be the optics ....

wide Regards from Cologne Germany

Norbert

Cupcar#12

sorta - the 88-89 911 is proably more collectable from a wide body cab perstpective.
the 964 is under rated still.

Collectable 964's (in years)
90-91' C4 RS LW (20 +/-)
92' USA Cup (45)
93-94' RSA (1700 +/-)
94' speedster (1000 +/-)
94' turbo and Flausbrau (?/20 +/-)
95' GS (only 1 and its taken)

other than that the 92' America Roadster and the 94' C4 Turbo look are about it
(sorry guys my opipion)

all IMHO...

Cupcar#12

cup #10

they are trading at 90K +/- ish now.. so on the rise.....
over the last 2 years from the sales i know of.

blake

I look at the muscle car market as an indication of what the 964s will bring come 2020... This market is dictated by the baby boomers reaching retirement age, and having both the cash and desire to relive their adolescent years. My 964 Speedster still gets tremendous attention when I drive it around town.

I agree with Rob's comments above, but do feel with only 250 examples, an America Roadster will rise in value over the next decade. I group it with the Speedster and RSA. Although their performance is no different than any other normally-aspirated 964, they are factory built "limited" examples. If kept original, I think they will be viewed as collectible over time and prices increase relatvie to their 964 counterparts.

Either way, I am proud to own my 964 today and want to add more (964 Cup, RSA and 94 Turbo) to the collection in time...

-Blake

cobalt

I won't argue that the cup cars are not increasing in value although I have recently seen one sell far below the numbers you are talking and know of another that the owner is having a hard time selling at a reasonable price. Since the 996/7 Cup cars are dropping in value it appears to be hurting the other markets for these types of vehicles.

I think when we talk about the cup cars we are seeing increases not on collectible value but on drivers interested in having a unique car to track. These increases are not for the same reason the street cars would be considered collectible IMO.

For the US market the Turbo S flachbaus (39 units) are still holding value but not increasing in value the Turbo S package cars (17 units) do appear to be rising slightly in value but very hard to tell since they come up for sale so infrequently.

Both the 964 turbo 3.6 and 964 turbo 3.3 are in a transition phase in this economy just as the RSA appears to be. Ultra nice all original low mileage examples are still holding if not increasing in value and the rest depends on other factors. The 3.6 I think will in time increase in value as the number of clean cars decreases. There were only 410 made in US spec and many have been damaged, gone to Porsche heaven or were converted to race cars and never sold for street use along with numerous ultra nice cars being sold to overseas owners we are seeing fewer than 300 of these left to chose from. Of the 963 imported US 3.3l cars so many have been converted to DE cars or have been used and abused nice clean examples are rising in value the rest are holding steady but lower than they should be since the 3.6 seems to get more of the collectors attention. The 20 S2 Andial built cars is a tough call. With only a few that have not been modified from the Andial built motor those might bring big $$ one day assuming they are kept original but it will be years before the verdict is out on that one.

The RSA seems to be holding its value best because they are sought after for track cars for those who can't afford the cup cars. Other than the manual rack the rest of the car is a C2 with a fixed wing but it gets a lot of interest from the DE guys and will continue to do so until others become more readily available.

The America Roadster is a unique car with as many pros as cons. The market is much smaller and so is availability. It is a good looking widebody with the right brakes and extras of the turbo. The cab top is specific to those interested in cabs and the down side is it is not as stiff and weighs a considerable amount with no added HP. I see this as working against it. Although I feel they will hold their value the $$ is with the iconic turbo for widebody and power, last of the single turbo RWD monsters vs the N/A cars. The 94 C4 has some advantages being a coupe but again is heavy and the AWD works against it along with the stock brakes.

So IMO the list should read cars that have the potential of increasing from current market value including all US 964's considering condition.

1) 90-91' C4 RS LW
2 & 3) 94 turbo S package car 94 turbo S flachbau
4) 94 turbo. clean original low mileage cars on the rise the rest depending on condition color etc. High mileage cars dropping.
4) 92 US cup. May go up or down hard to tell but already pricey and limited market. We need to see what the newer cars do to determine but market IMO has limited life before the newer cars depreciate making it anyone's guess. Although IMO I believe we have seen the top of their value can go +/- a small %
5) 91-92 turbo same reasons as the 94 turbo.
5) 93-94 RSA Hold it's value, condition is becoming much more important but will always have a market and will eventually sit on top of the 964 n/a value.
6) Speedster but distant 6th place and far less of a market most interested in the speedster prefer the earlier version and far too many made although a unique car. IMO this car is at its max $$ value but low milege examples will always be of interest to the right buyer.
7) 92 America roadster hold its value but market share will decrease making it harder to sell but feel it should hold where it is. Again low mileage cars will bring $$ but still tough to find the right buyer for.
8) 94 C4 widebody see slight drop in current value or low mileage cars holding current value.

As you see i have a couple of ties in my list.

I won't include the America GS since it isn't even part of the equation. It was at one time probably the most desirable 964 made however changes from its originality make it a unique car and doesn't qualify as a 964 as it once did. How it impacts its value will probably never be known.. Still will always be the 964 with a $$?.

Of course this all depends on many factors and if the car industry goes in the direction it is going we might find that the lack of fun cars being built will increase the value in all these cars or could work against them too.

In any case there really isn't any one car that you can say will be in the league of say a 73 RS.

Cupcar#12

Good Discussion.
i'm probably with you on the Turbo S, Not so much on the Flachtbau however as this is is highly polorizing in the market place as an S2 yes definitly, without the S2 i see them leveling or only slightly increasing...

Cup's.... well time will tell if there is a more recent sale - please let me know who so i can touch base with them. Downward trend is enivetable givent he economy, however my orignal was a forward looking statement, in the next 1-5 years i see prices again increasing and crossing the 100K barrier for nice street examples. Conversly i see the tracked/re-reconvered race spec ones leveling off as these are in a tough multi-criteria market and are weighed down somewhat with the 996 Cup prices (however i see this as a different market entierly). There are 2 types of 92 Cup buyers Collectors and Racers, they are not looking for the same things.


Of course the most collectable of all of them would be the one with less than 500 miles on the clock. Documented ownership history, and something interesting spec'd about it such as Aluminum fenders/doors, special wishes options, etc (there are a few out there..) Etc.

The GS was included as a lark as it is really irrelevent to the conversation at this point but garanteed to be collectable for a number of reasons.

Good conversation all

TL-Register

Very interesting how different European markets and Us markets appear.

The Turbo Look Cab ( America Roadster ) is a fix buyer here - increasing prices every year over 10 % you have to pay for a clean car from 40000 Euro ( 52000$ ) to 60000 euro ( 78000 $ ) - most of the AmR come to Europe in the Moment.

Best Performance for 964 ( LHD ) :
RS -Euro
Speedster
Turbo-Look Cab

Turbo 3,6 - hold their prices about 60000 Euro ( 78000 $ )
C4 Widebodys - hold their price around 35000 Euro ( 45500 $ )


Hard to sell : Turbo 3,3
Not able to sell : RS America

For France prices are 10-15 % higher

Cupcars / lightwights are out of reach


wide Regards

Norbert