964 C2 vs Mk1 GT3.......^^
06-03-2008, 06:35 AM
#1
Race Car
Thread Starter
964 C2 vs Mk1 GT3.......^^
Hi
You may remember that some time ago I purchased a Mk1 GT3? I promised at the time (in Jan IIRC) I would do some sort of write-up in terms of comparison. It has taken a lot longer to reach a level of familiarity than I thought it would, and I also wanted to not just communicate my first impressions - as these are notoriously fickle and subject to change. So here goes.
(Disclaimer: I am comparing a highly modified 964 to a standard Mk1 GT3, the modifications are here if you search. My obervations are only valid in relation to these particular 2 vehicles, they would not necessarily apply to a standard 964. I have also tried to be completely unbiased and objective).
Looks:
I have a soft spot for the bug-eyed look of the older 911's, and some of you will remember that I have said that I do not like the look (anywhere near as much) of the 996. The 997 seems to be a step in the right direction, despite being now a very large car indeed (park your 964 next to one). I don't think I need to go into how (we) I feel about the 964's looks - it is slightly dated certainly, but it is a classic shape. The looks of the Mk1 GT3 have grown on me. To my eyes, although it is clearly a 996 from the front, I must say that the GT3 looks good - this probably has more to do with the stance (height from front bumper to road is 6cms or so:O) and the overall purposeness of the look of the car. I think the worst part of the look is the headlights, but when you check the car out even from the front, the deep front spoiler and the aggressive way it looks I can forgive that. Somehow it seems to work anyway. Certainly, when I see a standard 996 I still think it looks anemic and weak, the GT3 is much more muscular and I guess its reputation of being able to back that look up makes a difference as well. The rear of the car (despite the large spoiler) seems to work much better than a standard 996 as well. My score out of 10 for each car:
964: 9
GT3: 8.5
Handling:
The 964 on standard suspension as we all know is slightly.....errr....soft...? My car has full H&R coilovers with RS bars. I would say that the refinement in the GT3 is better, it does ride a bit smoother but is every bit as hard if not harder. This was a surprise to me. The steering on both cars is fantastic, but again despite more refinement and a slight loss of feel as a result, the GT3 is even more direct, more rapier sharp - and my 964 in this case is no slouch and is pretty taut compared to most other 964's I have driven. This may also have something to do with the chassis, the chassis on the GT3 is certainly a good deal stiffer. Despite having owned the GT3 for 6 months, I must say that I have not driven the car in complete anger yet - but the grip is very high indeed and wet performance is also very good. I would say that the GT3 has my 964 beat here - no question. It should be said though, that as good as the GT3 is, it does lose some feel - but which is more important is also a very personal thing - I will leave it to you. Based on capability only, my scores are:
964: 7
GT3: 10
Brakes:
On this subject, we have all perhaps read that the 996's brakes are excellent but they do need some work as they are not over-assisted like M3's and so on. Having used the brakes on both cars in anger, I can safely say that whilst I am possibly one of the few people that have cooked the brakes on a standard 964 *on the road*, I have never had this problem on either of these cars - the 964 has RS brakes, the GT3 is standard. I cannot therefore make an informed comparison on the outright capability of the brakes (as in how much they can take) as I haven ot reached their limits, but I can say I much prefer the feel of the 964's setup. The pedal is very hard from the first few mm's of the braking action, and has excellent feel. I flex my big toe and I can scrub a lot of speed off in a very short time. It inspires confidence, because the minimal travel and strong braking action is instant, and I have not reached their limits - not by a long shot. The GT3 is somewhat different. The brakes I suspect are at least as good if not better in terms of what they can take. However, the pedal has more travel, and they don't bite as readily - it takes more effort but that is OK, its just that again it has lost some feel IMHO. Whilst we are on the subject of braking though, the GT3 does feel slightly more planted under heavy braking. My score (difference being outright feel as I don't think I could cook either car's brakes):
964: 9.5
GT3: 9
Transmission:
Do you know what? I prefer the 964's gearbox. On the flip side, having driven a GT3 for a while, I am now also painfully aware of the fact that the 964 gear lever is waaay too low. The 964's gearbox is meaty, shifts positively and easily whilst the GT3 gearbox is slightly notchier and doesn't have quite the positive feel of the G64. Interestingly (or not perhaps) the GT3 gearbox feels a little like a 993RS I drove once a few years back, just slightly vague IMHO. The clutch action is somewhat similar, both relatively heavy and good biting point. The 964 has a Quaife-style LSD, the GT has the full on standard LSD. The GT3 displays chatter from the LSD when maneuvering at low speed which I think is cool. Both cars are fairly predictable when breaking away into oversteer, and both have (of course) excellent traction. I have not tried it to the absolute limits yet, but suspect the GT3 will be more composed, but I think this is a chassis/suspension thing, not so much LSD related. My score, based on the gearbox more than the benefits of (or not) of having a locking motorsport LSD vs. Quaife-style is:
964: 10
GT3: 9.5
Engine/performance:
The cars could not be more different (bearing in mind both are NA). The GT3 with the variocam etc. definitely pulls a bit harder in the lower rev range (2.5 to 4k), and remains very linear right up to almost 8K rpm. The 964 with its long cams, pulls harder than a standard 964 at those kind of lower revs, but as it passes 4-4.5Krpm, it basically becomes somewhat insane. The 964 will occasionally spin its wheels in *3rd gear* on a wet road as it passes through 4k or so RPM, and as it races to its 7250k rpm limit, I actually think that it pulls harder than the GT3.....Let me put it another way, the GT pulls harder below, but above 5K I actually found it slightly disappointing at first, but I guess over time the linearity (if that is a word) of the power delivery has grown on me and is awesome. Overall in terms of acceleration, neither car feels quicker than the other, although I am guessing the GT3 would have a slight edge in a 50-150kmh rolling start due to the lower end torque....as I said, I have not tested this so it is seat-of-the-pants - but I think you know what I mean - when you drive 2 cars back to back over a period of time, you definitely get a fair opinion of the comparison, and I cannot detect a lot of difference in terms of acceleration (perhaps if I get to test this I would be proved wrong, but certainly no major differences). Now that we covered performance (at least to a point), I would like to make the point that the 964's engine with the mods and Motec does rev easier. The throttle inputs are faster (blipping the throttle for example) even though the GT3 is more responsive than a standard 964 or 996. The GT3 has the DMF (or whatever it i called for the 996), so I guess this could be improved, but I am going to guess it will be the same as the 964 and changing to LWF, yes response is improved but nothing like using Motec. My score on this is based on the fact that whilst I prefer the responsiveness of the 964's Motec set up, the GT3 has to be recognised for the linear and relentless performance:
964: 9
GT3: 9
Sound internal/external
Now noisewise, I am not sure how many of you have heard my car? At idle, it is very lumpy (again due to the long cams) and at WOT like other 964's the sound is very deep and without CAT or Primary it is quite loud (like 107db or so). The difference between my 964 and a standard car is that it does have quite a different beat to the sound - I guess again because of the internals. I will try to post a video of it some time, you can maybe judge for yourself, or another Rennlister who has heard the car can maybe comment. The situation here is that the 964 has the GT3 beat on sound IMHO. Having said that, the GT3 sounds very different to a standard 996, again the idle is slightly lumpy and you can feel the engine's beat. As you press on, the GT3 is more of a screamer, and the sound from 5k to 8 or so k is quite something. Totally different to the 964, but still makes you smile. A lot. To sum it up, if I could have GT3 which sounded more like a 964 then it would be a far easier comparison! In terms of *interior* noise, the GT3 is surprisingly noisy. This is everything from the engine, to transmission and of course the tyres. There is less sound-proofing material in a GT3 compared to a standard 996 - you can vaguely hear the engine in a standard one as you gwet to about 7K rpm, but below that you could *almost* be in a Merc....(almost
). In the 964, the sound-proofing is actually quite substantial, I would guess that the noise level in either car is not that far off each other, but the 964 is a quite a lot louder outside. My score cannot be objective here - I prefer the external sound of the 964 by far, but the GT3 is better than I thought. Hence:
964: 10
GT3: 9
Total scores:
964: 54.5
GT3: 55.0
The scores are very close, and I guess that does actually reflect my honest opinion. To sum up that opinion (and again is based on a *heavily* modified 964) I would like to say that I put a fair bit of emphasis on 'feel' (which is probably why I would not swap a GT3 for a GT-R whether it is faster or not). By this I mean that the GT3 is more refined but has inevitably lost some of that organic feel that you get in the older cars - I am not sure I can describe it well enough. The GT3 is immensely capable and for the level of refinement (over the 964 of course, compared to a BMW it is a race car
)its capabilities are phenomenal. The steering response has to be felt to be believed. If the comparison was based purely on capability, the 964 would lose a good couple of points I guess, and versus a standard 964 the score would be more like 55 vs 40.
In closing, my 964 is a loud, oil-smelling cage fighter, who drinks vodka by the bottle and can be just slightly scary sometimes. It gets the job done in a very different way. The GT3 is more a very highly skilled professional - quiet, doesn't drink or smoke, wears a tight top to show off its muscles but can back it up with extraordinary outright ability. Stealthier in some respects, but has a large presence visually.
p.s. Both cars get a lot of attention. The GT3 gets way more negative attention, you can almost hear a lot of people mumbling 'pr*ck' under their breaths. Not that I care, but my GF has also noticed this - the 964 seems to get everyone smiling.
Thank you for reading if you made it this far. I know this review will be of no use to anyone who doesn't have a 964 in the same configuration as mine - but if you want a ride or drive in a GT3 to compare your 964, perhaps we can work something out.
You may remember that some time ago I purchased a Mk1 GT3? I promised at the time (in Jan IIRC) I would do some sort of write-up in terms of comparison. It has taken a lot longer to reach a level of familiarity than I thought it would, and I also wanted to not just communicate my first impressions - as these are notoriously fickle and subject to change. So here goes.
(Disclaimer: I am comparing a highly modified 964 to a standard Mk1 GT3, the modifications are here if you search. My obervations are only valid in relation to these particular 2 vehicles, they would not necessarily apply to a standard 964. I have also tried to be completely unbiased and objective).
Looks:
I have a soft spot for the bug-eyed look of the older 911's, and some of you will remember that I have said that I do not like the look (anywhere near as much) of the 996. The 997 seems to be a step in the right direction, despite being now a very large car indeed (park your 964 next to one). I don't think I need to go into how (we) I feel about the 964's looks - it is slightly dated certainly, but it is a classic shape. The looks of the Mk1 GT3 have grown on me. To my eyes, although it is clearly a 996 from the front, I must say that the GT3 looks good - this probably has more to do with the stance (height from front bumper to road is 6cms or so:O) and the overall purposeness of the look of the car. I think the worst part of the look is the headlights, but when you check the car out even from the front, the deep front spoiler and the aggressive way it looks I can forgive that. Somehow it seems to work anyway. Certainly, when I see a standard 996 I still think it looks anemic and weak, the GT3 is much more muscular and I guess its reputation of being able to back that look up makes a difference as well. The rear of the car (despite the large spoiler) seems to work much better than a standard 996 as well. My score out of 10 for each car:
964: 9
GT3: 8.5
Handling:
The 964 on standard suspension as we all know is slightly.....errr....soft...? My car has full H&R coilovers with RS bars. I would say that the refinement in the GT3 is better, it does ride a bit smoother but is every bit as hard if not harder. This was a surprise to me. The steering on both cars is fantastic, but again despite more refinement and a slight loss of feel as a result, the GT3 is even more direct, more rapier sharp - and my 964 in this case is no slouch and is pretty taut compared to most other 964's I have driven. This may also have something to do with the chassis, the chassis on the GT3 is certainly a good deal stiffer. Despite having owned the GT3 for 6 months, I must say that I have not driven the car in complete anger yet - but the grip is very high indeed and wet performance is also very good. I would say that the GT3 has my 964 beat here - no question. It should be said though, that as good as the GT3 is, it does lose some feel - but which is more important is also a very personal thing - I will leave it to you. Based on capability only, my scores are:
964: 7
GT3: 10
Brakes:
On this subject, we have all perhaps read that the 996's brakes are excellent but they do need some work as they are not over-assisted like M3's and so on. Having used the brakes on both cars in anger, I can safely say that whilst I am possibly one of the few people that have cooked the brakes on a standard 964 *on the road*, I have never had this problem on either of these cars - the 964 has RS brakes, the GT3 is standard. I cannot therefore make an informed comparison on the outright capability of the brakes (as in how much they can take) as I haven ot reached their limits, but I can say I much prefer the feel of the 964's setup. The pedal is very hard from the first few mm's of the braking action, and has excellent feel. I flex my big toe and I can scrub a lot of speed off in a very short time. It inspires confidence, because the minimal travel and strong braking action is instant, and I have not reached their limits - not by a long shot. The GT3 is somewhat different. The brakes I suspect are at least as good if not better in terms of what they can take. However, the pedal has more travel, and they don't bite as readily - it takes more effort but that is OK, its just that again it has lost some feel IMHO. Whilst we are on the subject of braking though, the GT3 does feel slightly more planted under heavy braking. My score (difference being outright feel as I don't think I could cook either car's brakes):
964: 9.5
GT3: 9
Transmission:
Do you know what? I prefer the 964's gearbox. On the flip side, having driven a GT3 for a while, I am now also painfully aware of the fact that the 964 gear lever is waaay too low. The 964's gearbox is meaty, shifts positively and easily whilst the GT3 gearbox is slightly notchier and doesn't have quite the positive feel of the G64. Interestingly (or not perhaps) the GT3 gearbox feels a little like a 993RS I drove once a few years back, just slightly vague IMHO. The clutch action is somewhat similar, both relatively heavy and good biting point. The 964 has a Quaife-style LSD, the GT has the full on standard LSD. The GT3 displays chatter from the LSD when maneuvering at low speed which I think is cool. Both cars are fairly predictable when breaking away into oversteer, and both have (of course) excellent traction. I have not tried it to the absolute limits yet, but suspect the GT3 will be more composed, but I think this is a chassis/suspension thing, not so much LSD related. My score, based on the gearbox more than the benefits of (or not) of having a locking motorsport LSD vs. Quaife-style is:
964: 10
GT3: 9.5
Engine/performance:
The cars could not be more different (bearing in mind both are NA). The GT3 with the variocam etc. definitely pulls a bit harder in the lower rev range (2.5 to 4k), and remains very linear right up to almost 8K rpm. The 964 with its long cams, pulls harder than a standard 964 at those kind of lower revs, but as it passes 4-4.5Krpm, it basically becomes somewhat insane. The 964 will occasionally spin its wheels in *3rd gear* on a wet road as it passes through 4k or so RPM, and as it races to its 7250k rpm limit, I actually think that it pulls harder than the GT3.....Let me put it another way, the GT pulls harder below, but above 5K I actually found it slightly disappointing at first, but I guess over time the linearity (if that is a word) of the power delivery has grown on me and is awesome. Overall in terms of acceleration, neither car feels quicker than the other, although I am guessing the GT3 would have a slight edge in a 50-150kmh rolling start due to the lower end torque....as I said, I have not tested this so it is seat-of-the-pants - but I think you know what I mean - when you drive 2 cars back to back over a period of time, you definitely get a fair opinion of the comparison, and I cannot detect a lot of difference in terms of acceleration (perhaps if I get to test this I would be proved wrong, but certainly no major differences). Now that we covered performance (at least to a point), I would like to make the point that the 964's engine with the mods and Motec does rev easier. The throttle inputs are faster (blipping the throttle for example) even though the GT3 is more responsive than a standard 964 or 996. The GT3 has the DMF (or whatever it i called for the 996), so I guess this could be improved, but I am going to guess it will be the same as the 964 and changing to LWF, yes response is improved but nothing like using Motec. My score on this is based on the fact that whilst I prefer the responsiveness of the 964's Motec set up, the GT3 has to be recognised for the linear and relentless performance:
964: 9
GT3: 9
Sound internal/external
Now noisewise, I am not sure how many of you have heard my car? At idle, it is very lumpy (again due to the long cams) and at WOT like other 964's the sound is very deep and without CAT or Primary it is quite loud (like 107db or so). The difference between my 964 and a standard car is that it does have quite a different beat to the sound - I guess again because of the internals. I will try to post a video of it some time, you can maybe judge for yourself, or another Rennlister who has heard the car can maybe comment. The situation here is that the 964 has the GT3 beat on sound IMHO. Having said that, the GT3 sounds very different to a standard 996, again the idle is slightly lumpy and you can feel the engine's beat. As you press on, the GT3 is more of a screamer, and the sound from 5k to 8 or so k is quite something. Totally different to the 964, but still makes you smile. A lot. To sum it up, if I could have GT3 which sounded more like a 964 then it would be a far easier comparison! In terms of *interior* noise, the GT3 is surprisingly noisy. This is everything from the engine, to transmission and of course the tyres. There is less sound-proofing material in a GT3 compared to a standard 996 - you can vaguely hear the engine in a standard one as you gwet to about 7K rpm, but below that you could *almost* be in a Merc....(almost
). In the 964, the sound-proofing is actually quite substantial, I would guess that the noise level in either car is not that far off each other, but the 964 is a quite a lot louder outside. My score cannot be objective here - I prefer the external sound of the 964 by far, but the GT3 is better than I thought. Hence:964: 10
GT3: 9
Total scores:
964: 54.5
GT3: 55.0
The scores are very close, and I guess that does actually reflect my honest opinion. To sum up that opinion (and again is based on a *heavily* modified 964) I would like to say that I put a fair bit of emphasis on 'feel' (which is probably why I would not swap a GT3 for a GT-R whether it is faster or not). By this I mean that the GT3 is more refined but has inevitably lost some of that organic feel that you get in the older cars - I am not sure I can describe it well enough. The GT3 is immensely capable and for the level of refinement (over the 964 of course, compared to a BMW it is a race car
)its capabilities are phenomenal. The steering response has to be felt to be believed. If the comparison was based purely on capability, the 964 would lose a good couple of points I guess, and versus a standard 964 the score would be more like 55 vs 40.In closing, my 964 is a loud, oil-smelling cage fighter, who drinks vodka by the bottle and can be just slightly scary sometimes. It gets the job done in a very different way. The GT3 is more a very highly skilled professional - quiet, doesn't drink or smoke, wears a tight top to show off its muscles but can back it up with extraordinary outright ability. Stealthier in some respects, but has a large presence visually.
p.s. Both cars get a lot of attention. The GT3 gets way more negative attention, you can almost hear a lot of people mumbling 'pr*ck' under their breaths. Not that I care, but my GF has also noticed this - the 964 seems to get everyone smiling.
Thank you for reading if you made it this far. I know this review will be of no use to anyone who doesn't have a 964 in the same configuration as mine - but if you want a ride or drive in a GT3 to compare your 964, perhaps we can work something out.
06-03-2008, 08:08 AM
#3
It was interesting - and the result was closer than I would have expected.
I think a comparison with a relatively stock 964 would be useful - especially given the price difference. I would be happy to borrow the GT3 for a couple of months if you like?
I think a comparison with a relatively stock 964 would be useful - especially given the price difference. I would be happy to borrow the GT3 for a couple of months if you like?
06-03-2008, 09:09 AM
#4
Nordschleife Master
Thanks for posting your thoughts. I found them very interesting 
. So have you still got the 964? If so, are you now tempted to keep it because the GT3 does not have appear to have made it redundant?
. So have you still got the 964? If so, are you now tempted to keep it because the GT3 does not have appear to have made it redundant?
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06-03-2008, 10:49 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
As a 964 fan, I think this picture tells a better story: (I'm on the pole in the 964 Cup and that's a GT3 Mk1 modded for racing in 3rd. This is Road America last year.):
(btw, great write-up)
(btw, great write-up)
06-03-2008, 11:03 AM
#9
3rd Gear
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Yes, great comparison.
I only just joined the site and am thinking about trading my family wagon for a smaller city car for day-to-day plus something fun with not too crazy an entry price, which is how I came upon the idea of a 964. It would be great to see what a sorted 964 is like as I don't really have any benchmarks against which to judge what I want to buy. I am also based in London. You may also like a ride in our family wagon - it deploys its 400+ bhp quite violently, which is always fun.
I only just joined the site and am thinking about trading my family wagon for a smaller city car for day-to-day plus something fun with not too crazy an entry price, which is how I came upon the idea of a 964. It would be great to see what a sorted 964 is like as I don't really have any benchmarks against which to judge what I want to buy. I am also based in London. You may also like a ride in our family wagon - it deploys its 400+ bhp quite violently, which is always fun.
06-03-2008, 11:09 AM
#10
Nordschleife Master
06-03-2008, 02:20 PM
#12
3rd Gear
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- and that would be the 'amiable, club door-guarding bouncer/gorilla'. (Named, 'Tiny'.)
I think you probably guessed already that it's an RS4 B5 with some non-factory options.
06-03-2008, 10:17 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Great! About my sentiments on my dead RSA v. the US spec GT3's I got to drive the next year. With the 993 (yellow car) I have now, I just found no reason at all to buy the GT3 a friend was trying to sell me last summer.
