RonCT

Hello,

A little background... I moved over from an E46 M3 to my 997S and have been having a blast with my 1st rear-engined car. I DE (Black) and enjoy going to monthly PCA meetings, events, drives, etc. I'm happy with my current car (avatar), but am seeking a more "pure" experience. I do not like over-assisted, computer screens, etc.

After reading old Excellence articles, doing research, and talking to other PCA oriented folk, I'm seriously considering one of the following directions and would appreciate any input you might have to offer:

1. 964 C2 that I would take to another level. Lighten it using RS parts and pieces, upgrade suspension and brakes, and possibly tinker with the engine - taking the C2 as far as is practical. I'm not at all interested in some sort of clone project - purpose built only.

2. RSA that I would do much of the same to. Get the typical safety gear - half cage, seats, harnesses). No sunroof a mandate and in the other items (1 and 3) I might go so far as to replace the roof panel and headliner. I like this option philosophically in that it was a Porsche attempt at a track-oriented car for our market.

3. 965. Something to be said about the turbo parts and pieces already there - engine, brakes, etc. Wouldn't need to much with this platform other than safety, suspension, etc. Not sure I'm in love with the rear wing though...

I'm finding the pricing to be about $20-30k for a very nice low miles C2, $35-40k for an RSA, and $40-50k for a Turbo (asking prices). There are plenty out there to pick from and I just started looking and am very patient to wait for the right one.

Performance wise, I enjoy the power and torque of the 997S. When I want power, it's there. I've never had a momentum car and really don't want to start in that direction. The M3 and 997S had plenty of power - I'm not interested in more.

You may say that I need to get out there and drive some versions of these cars and I have and will continue to do so. But those of you "in the know" have a much better perspective on "sensation" and "feel" of the 964 platform. You might know right off the bat "if you had an M3 and drive a 997S on the track now, forget the C2 and RSA unless you radically modify the engine..." Or you may say "Ron, the Turbo will be more similar, but the others as modified will get you around the track just as quick driven well..."

I found it easy to get 8/10 out of the 997S having never owned a rear-engined car before. 9/10 took a little seat-time this past season and I've been able to log 1:02s at Lime Rock and 2:15s at Watkins Glen. I still have another 10th to wring out of the 997S. That gives you some feel for where I am "sensation wise" on the track - I'd want to create a car that has potential for that and then some if possible. But, this is not to be a race car, just for DE and enjoying around town and at PCA meetings, etc.

So, opinions and leads on cars appreciated.

Larry Herman

I don't really understand this statement, and so it makes your question hard to answer concisely. I have yet to drive a car that "when I needed more power, it was there", and I had a GT3 and raced a 996 Cup Car. If you don't want something that feels like a "momentum car", stay away from anything with less than 300 hp. Based on this, I'd say buy the turbo. You can park it in the corners and it still will run decent lap times. If you want a raw, connected feel though, a lightweight C2 is an awesome car, with a reasonably good type of suspension, and a terrific platform on which to upgrade. The only reason to get an RSA would be for the manual steering.

That being said, all of the N/A cars (911s, 964s & 993s) need to be hammered into the corners, and driven hard off of them, or you will be slow. The 996/997 platform is far superior in terms of grip and forgiveness. They tolerate a lot of off-throttle stuff, and even if you are slower on your entry, you can keep up a good mid-corner speed and come off the corners hard.

As a comparison, my RSA runs right with GT3s at many tracks, including Watkins Glen, but it takes a lot of work to do that.

RonCT

I suppose my power comment means that when I get a pass signal, I can hit the throttle and go. I've got plenty of PCA friends that can't do that because they are in a momentum car. They have to plan way ahead to get a pass and play "cat and mouse" for a few laps. I don't mind working hard - that's part of what I'm after here. The 997S is almost too easy to drive fast - I'd rather it be more me than the computer

Larry Herman

Gotcha. Well your 997S has 380 hp, and that certainly helps when you need to pass someone as you mentioned. A turbo will probably be the closest to what you have in that respect, however, you can certainly build a 3.6L motor to get plenty of power and by lightening the car and running shorter gears, have something that will accelerate with your 997S. I guess that it really depends on how much you want to spend.

FWIW, recently a number of guys in our club sold their older turbos and 911s to get into the 964/993 platform, and every one of them is glad that they did. They really are "drivers cars".

Geoffrey

It is my position that every car is a momentum car. This "start with a slow car which will make you a fast driver" isn't necessarily true for all people.

As long as you have a street/track car, you will be limiting yourself and will be passed by people with dedicated race cars. Street/track cars have too much compromize to be a truly fast car. However, you can still have fun in them and the 964 chassis is a good chassis for this application. The one thing that makes a large difference is upgrading the front end to GT2 Evo front end.

DrJupeman

+1

To become a fast driver you need to realize this...

RonCT

Thanks Geoffrey for the feedback. I realize every car is a momentum car, but having the power to pass when desired is nice. I hear what you are saying about the limitations of street oriented cars - I was passed by 3 cars this season and all were full race cars - 997 Cup, 996 Cup, and you ... and boy did you pass me...

ltc

964 Cup car?

RonCT

Want street legal so I can drive it to LRP (but will have it transported to WGI and Tremblant). Also want to drive to PCA meetings, around town, etc. Not a razor's edge car, but something fun and capable... Sounding more and more like my 997S Now if I could only get rid of the computer screen in my car, lose the PASM for something more traditional, etc. Hmm, sounding like a non-PCM 997 GT3... That's got the performance, but not the traditional look or experience of an air-cooled Porsche. See the dilemma?

Geoffrey

So, what will you do after 2008 when you can't drive LRP at all?

RonCT

Do you know something I don't Geoffrey? I'm already planning to have my car transported to Tremblant and if I change cars then to WGI too (I don't mind driving the 997 that far). If LRP goes away, then I'll just have to do more events "out of state"

Chris M.

Buy the Turbo for the power and for the ease of upgrading to more power, lighten it and do the suspension as you were planning to do to the C2, and you'll have a really fun car that you can still drive on the street.
I hate to say it but unless you spend a small fortune on the C2's engine you'll be missing that "I have power when I need it feeling".

herman maire

Do what I'm going to do... Buy a nice 964 c2, pull out all the heavy stuff and slap a big fat single turbo on it. With low boost (about 6psi) on stock engine with after market EMG and a BIG intercooler your going to get over 400rwhp easy with very little lag. It will be a BEAST.

If you want to get even more crazy drop some low compression pistons in there with some aftermarket rods and your set for some crazy HP. It would kill supercars.

A stock 965 compared to a N/A 3.6L with after market EMG is a MUCH better set up.

Thats what I'm doing anyway

Geoffrey

In what respects are you talking about? I would not agree with that statement at all.

You may also want to just mill the N/A pistons down to 9:1 compression, you'll have lots better luck with turbocharging the N/A engine. Don't forget the heads from a 964 N/A are not made from the RR350 that the turbo heads are made from.

ltc

Sorry, I wasn't clear.
I suggested a 964 (US) Cup, street legal......not a 964 Euro Cup.

If not, then perhaps a federalized 964 RS?