deoxford

Springer3,
You can still run you car on that dyno as a reference.
I still think that it does show that with AFM is the "blank" and with MAF is the "sample "
So the numbers are valid, even if the O2 sensor was or was not working

Now remember this is time consuming ,and the drive for me to the dyno is 45 mins one way .
Changing a part on a dyno is difficult at best,but I am willing to learn more.


So I believe that there is a gain from the data I see on the dyno, I did not change the cat so that remains the Control.


If there is so much disbelief , then maybe we should write a testing procedure that we all agree removes the mistakes as best we can within reason. The run the test.

I fear that we may never be able to get everyone to agree on a SOP though.

fast951

Springer3, Paul is it? In the other thread I challenged you to dyno your car on pump gas with a stock chip, all I got is a run around. I even offered to let you dyno with a MAF at no cost to you, of course you declined. All my offers were simple and gave you a fair chance to prove what you claim about the 5hp is true, yet all I got is some lame excuse.

Based on information YOU provided, you are the second owner of your car. You never opened the DME but you suspect you have a stock chip. Yet your car ping in hot wether so you add 100octane gas from the airport. Is it normal for a "stock" car to ping in hot weather on 93 octane?

Your claim based on the drag race is meaningless. Your car is lighter, you use different size wheels/tires. You could have been running a "cup" chip on race gas, who knows? Or you could have a higher compression engine, or different cams. Of course we have to believe you "it's stock". Maybe it is, maybe not, it doesn't matter. The dyno results show concrete data, not claims without proof.

It's simple, go dyno your car at the same dyno and compare the results. Maybe you will have the most powerful "stock" engine. Maybe you will have the "only" stock engine making 250rwhp. Have you ever dynoed your car before?

You come to post here for a reason. You are not as naive or innocent as you try to come across. Your false claims are without any merits or proof. As far as I see it, you are here to hurt my business. Making a claim without any proof on a public forum which can hurt a business is not very smart. Do you get the picture where this might go?

fast951

No worry, it's about to get real ugly! A few are making this personal.

fast951

Out of curiosity, maybe an expert (many on this thread) can explain to me how the DME uses the O2 sensor under Wide Open Throttle? (Dyno run is at WOT). This is a joke!

deep_uv

It doesn't use it. Open loop mode.

springer3

Yes it is Paul. I stand by my previous posts. I came in open-minded, saw objective evidence, and came to the conclusion that my stock 964 will not run any faster with the MAF. I am still open to the idea that I need an MAF to take advantage of more radical modifications.

What was the temperature on the day of your test? I may just run to the same dyno, but we all know that if I go on a colder day, I will make more power. If I go on a hot day, I will make less. What will it prove? I offered to be there the same day, and you are the one who declined.

fast951

So what difference does it make if the O2 sensor was connected or not? Someone suggested the dyno run could be incorrect if the O2 sensor was disconnected.

fast951

No need to worry about the dyno, we dynoed on 2 different days (weeks apart). Both times the power was within 3hp (~1%). Go run your car.

Paul, for the last time. The drag race you did is MEANINGLESS! According to you:
- you weight less than Derek,
- your car weigh less than Derek's,
- any idea how much fuel you both had (more weight difference),
- your tires are of a different size,
- you never opened the DME to know what's in it
- You are the second owner, any chance someone prior to you has been into the engine
- How about the gearing.
The list of variables keeps growing, yet you keep making unproven claims..

I have been around Porsche for a very long time, I have been a PCA/BMW driving instructor for a long time. I have customers who tell me they are running stock setup, they seem to forget that I'm the one who tuned their car (you got to love racers) .

A 20-25+hp gain from a MAF conversion is not a huge deal.. I have converted enough cars (100s of 951, 944, 944S2, 911s, BMW).. I know what results to expect..

If your car makes within 5hp from Derek's car, you have the MOST powerful "stock" car.

Regardless! The dyno clearly shows the performance gained from the MAF kit.. How can anyone dispute this?

fast951

For the record, it can be verified in the other thread. You are the one who kept coming up with excuses. I suggested you run the same AFM DME/chip, the same gas as Derek, I even offered to let you try the MAF. But you always came back with some sort of reasoning creating roadblocks.

You emailed the evening before the dyno session. It was a bit late as we already made plans. Keep in mind, this is your hobby no longer mine. After all the road blocks and what appeared excuses for not running the test I suggested, I didn't think you were serious.

Also, we still have no proof that your car is stock. You are not the original owner, who knows what has been done prior to your purchase..

The bottom line, like it or not. The MAF kit works, it performs, if a dyno chart is not a good proof, then there is nothing else to say.

Fast4525

John, thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions.

Point taken and I know that you have a good track record with 951s. Please try to get another MAF'd 964 on the dyan ASAP to help support the numbers from the first beta car. This would go a long way to help convince the doubters.

Does your MAF/chip combo run richer or leaner than stock @ WOT? How does your MAF set-up deal with baro changes (air temp, density and importantly, altitude)?

I will require a 91oct tune so I hope you get to that soon

Great to hear that you are using a large, high-quality air filter. I will be able to fabricate my own heat shield. Can you post more pics of the components and the kit installed in the car? Are nice support brackets included?

Keep up the good work

Christer

HEAR HEAR!!!!!!

WTF happened to the dyno day?

Look, can we just ignore Loren's tone for a minute and get back to the point? I don't care how long someone has been working with Porsches or what they use to tune a car - as long as there is some PROOF that what you actually buy is going to make a real difference!!!!!!!

The road test proved that there is not a lot of difference in power output of the 2 cars - how much we do not know - and how much the MAF has benefited Dereks car we also do not know......WHICH IS THE ONLY REASON WE HAVE BEEN READING THIS THREAD. As I have said before, I don't think anyone would spend $500 let alone $1500 for a 5HP gain....so why not get this over with? Just put some numbers out there.

In a road test, I can promise you that my car for example would be substantially quicker, and Springer would notice that just driving my car himself. I have seen my car's dyno curves compared to stock GT3's and other models stored on the same dyno, which although unnecessary at my state of tune is nice to have.

Get with the programme dude - I know Loren's tone sucks (as I am usre mine does now) but you have to realise that people need to see some benefit in buying your product. Maybe Derek bought it to get better fuel consumption, but I think that most of your potential clients won't so please see if we can get the dyno session set up so that we don't have to read this boring and inane rant any longer.

Christer

p.s. - we don't have to use Springers car if you are worried - why not use someone else's? Anyone else offer up a car that does not 'ping in hot weather with 93 MON gas'?

raven14

This is my first post on this forum. I am Belgian so sorry for my bad english!

I don't get many of the negative replies here.

The dynos before and after show the results: Johns kit (hard- and software) will get this 964 a nice performance gain of around 20hp (on this particular car). It would be nice to see other results from this kit on different cars, but this shows the direction already. The test results are valid as the kit is the only variable played with in the setup.

Now you can argue that there might be better 'bang for the buck' upgrade kits available, and that of course is a neverending discussion, but you cannot argue on the fact the MAF kit does what it is supposed to do. Bringing springer3's car into the equation is absolutely irrelevant, because it is a different car, with a different engine etc... you could just as well bring in a stock 997.

As far as the butt-dyno argument goes: my car has a Steve Wong chip, and with the exception of a smoother idle, I do not really 'feel' this upgrade. However, my lap times on the track have indeed dropped with more than a second with just this change. It all depends on what you're looking for right?

boxsey911

There appears to be a genuine interest here to see the before and after results of the MAF kit fitted to a stock 964. However, as all these cars are at least 15 years old and most if not all have had multiple owners, finding a completely stock 964 is going to be really tricky. As John currently doubts that Paul's (Springer's) car is 'stock' then we really need another owner to come forward to do the test.

Personally (having an almost stock 964 AFAIK) I find the dyno results for Derek's car quite interesting and give me food for thought for the future. I also think Paul's and Derek's road test was a very creditable experiment. However, with the concerns voiced about the differences between the two cars, I would propose another road test where this time; Paul runs against Derek's car without the MAF kit (in theory Derek's car should lose out this time) and then the MAF kit gets fitted to Paul's car (in theory Derek should lose out even more).

springer3

Not true. We would easily see a 20 HP difference. We saw no difference.

True, but we swapped cars with the same result.

Debatable. Derek has the RS clutch and LWF. I have the heavier DMF. Derek has a cat bypass, I don't. Derek's car has a lightweight racing seat, mine still has the full-electric, full-leather stock seats that each weigh about 30 lb more. Best I recall, Derek removed the rear seats and some of the carpet for the roll cage. I had my brief case and some Christmas presents still in the car. I carried my spare tire, and my washer fluid tank was full. I guessed Derek's roll cage weighs 60 lb - about a 5 HP penalty that is mostly off-set by his other weight savings.

Read the thread. We gassed up full at the same time and place.

We ran the same speed at our 2000 RPM starting point and at the redline when we stopped the run.

True, but it reads original equopment on a Hammer. I offered to let you verify it is original equipment.

No. The PO provided all receipts and there was a good match to the 42,000 miles showing. All were for warrenty items, minor repairs, and required services, all performed at Jim Ellis, the dealer who sold the car.

We ran the same speed at our 2000RPM starting point and at the redline when we stopped the run.

I offered to help measure or control the variables in the dyno test. My offer is on the other thread. After I did not hear from you, I sent you the PM on the day before the test. Don't get me wrong - I think 20 HP is real, but I don't think your "after" curve is an improvement over the stock configuration represented by my car.