Source for Solid mount
12-05-2007, 12:57 AM
#1
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Source for Solid mount
I am looking to tighten up the car some more, and I think the Solid Shock Mounts are the next step.
Can y'all help with a source or sources for the mounts and part numbers#
Thanks
Can y'all help with a source or sources for the mounts and part numbers#
Thanks
Last edited by deoxford; 12-05-2007 at 09:44 AM.
12-05-2007, 03:01 AM
#2
Burning Brakes
Mounts for what? If you are talking about engine mounts, I think the WEVO semi-solids are the way to go. They have a thin (about 1/8") polymer washer sandwiched between 2 pieces of metal, so the compliance is VERY tiny, but you get a little less noise transmission.
12-05-2007, 01:11 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Yeah for the 964 your choices are pretty limited - +1 on smart racing. It adds up fast, though. 6 bills for monoball spring plates, 6 bills for monoball control arm cartridges, so that's $1200 alreay in the rear 
Personally, I would avoid spending the extra $$$ on the rear shock mount. that area does not see any side-loading, and the compression is very minimal. I said save the money because get ready, it's another 6 bills for the front a-arm monoballs and at least 4 or 5 bills for the shock mounts.
Personally, I would avoid spending the extra $$$ on the rear shock mount. that area does not see any side-loading, and the compression is very minimal. I said save the money because get ready, it's another 6 bills for the front a-arm monoballs and at least 4 or 5 bills for the shock mounts.
12-05-2007, 03:18 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
BTW, I thought the OP wanted solid motor mounts.
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12-05-2007, 04:35 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
No side loading in a rear-engined car? Maybe that holds true if one is not driving hard, but, if anything, I'd spend more money to ensure more precision in the rear of the car. Once you start really pushing, you're going to absolutely want to know what that back end is doing by having it communicate in no uncertain terms that it wants to step out; I guarantee that you'll want it to happen in a smooth manner as opposed to some sort of two step shuffle. Less precision means a greater chance for muddied responses and mixed communication.
BTW, I thought the OP wanted solid motor mounts.
BTW, I thought the OP wanted solid motor mounts.
Of course we are talking about driving hard - if we weren't, why would you replace any rubber in the system?
Suspension kinematics have nothing to do with where the engine is, and positive control over them is just as important in the front as in the back.
You have 4 joints per side in the 964 rear suspension - top and bottom of shock, control arm, spring plate. Assume that each joint only allows rotation and NOT translation, as is the case with monoball-type joints.
Now we have to put those 4 joints together to restrict 5 of the 6 possible degrees of freedom.
In the abstract, taking 2 rods at some fixed angle, rods attached together in a way that they can't move relative to each other, and putting metal ball joints on the end of those rods does exactly this. It restricts all 3 degrees of translational freedom, and 2 degrees of rotational freedom. This is precisely what the control arm and spring plate do. Thus, the wheel can only travel in an arc-shaped path, and cannot move inboard/outboard other than what is prescribed by the angle/orientation of the ball joints. Done.
The 2 joints left, for the shock, are simply attachment points to buffer the sprung from unsprung weight. They do not do any work to prevent inboard/outboard movement of the wheel.
Now, all that is for an all-monoball system. Because we have rubber at EVERY joint in the system in stock configuration, the stock suspension in reality has 6 degrees of freedom. It *generally* follows the arc path, but can be forced to rotate or translate in any direction.
My suggestion, take it or leave it, is to save your money on the rubber rear shock joints, and put it into the control arm and spring plate joints. Once you've done those 2, the only compliance left in the system is bump/droop - and it is very minor compared to spring rate and your tire sidewalls. Whatever you do, do NOT get rear shock monoballs WITHOUT doing monoball spring plates and control arms - it would be a hands-down complete waste of money, unless your existing rubber is rotted out or something bad - maybe from being left in the sun, or caught on fire, or something.
Everyone has an opinion, just offering mine in terms of better ways to spend your money. Putting that rear shock monoball money towards some really trick $$$ shocks will give way better bang for the buck imho.
Of course, front suspension is a totally different story. the ball joint at the bottom of the wheel carrier prevents sideways tranlsation, but the top of the shock maintains positive control of camber. Get the monoball shock mounts for those bad boys. Of course, if you don't get monoballs for the control (A) arms, you will get some amount of unwanted translation in/out as well as unwanted steering rotation.
Last edited by chancecasey; 12-05-2007 at 04:57 PM.
12-05-2007, 06:37 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Chancecasey says it all well, the more the degrees of freedom (slop) in the suspension that are eliminated the better the car feels.
IMHO if you want max bang for buck in eliminating rubber, particularly for autocross, I would go with the monoball front upper mounts, monoballs in the 4 rear trailing arm joints (eliminates the "Weissach Axel" effect and slop for better throttle steer), stiffer stab bar mounting material (eliminates slop), monoball drop links for the stabilizer bars (allows accurate corner weighting and eliminates slop) and Wevo or solid engine mounts (better throttle steer response)
P.S. A front strut brace works best with the monoball mounts backing it up.
IMHO if you want max bang for buck in eliminating rubber, particularly for autocross, I would go with the monoball front upper mounts, monoballs in the 4 rear trailing arm joints (eliminates the "Weissach Axel" effect and slop for better throttle steer), stiffer stab bar mounting material (eliminates slop), monoball drop links for the stabilizer bars (allows accurate corner weighting and eliminates slop) and Wevo or solid engine mounts (better throttle steer response)
P.S. A front strut brace works best with the monoball mounts backing it up.
12-05-2007, 10:52 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
If you prefer to pay the big bucks to let someone else understand exactly what each component does, I respect that. I am just trying to offer some insight into the 964 rear suspension.
Of course we are talking about driving hard - if we weren't, why would you replace any rubber in the system?
Suspension kinematics have nothing to do with where the engine is, and positive control over them is just as important in the front as in the back.
You have 4 joints per side in the 964 rear suspension - top and bottom of shock, control arm, spring plate. Assume that each joint only allows rotation and NOT translation, as is the case with monoball-type joints.
Now we have to put those 4 joints together to restrict 5 of the 6 possible degrees of freedom.
In the abstract, taking 2 rods at some fixed angle, rods attached together in a way that they can't move relative to each other, and putting metal ball joints on the end of those rods does exactly this. It restricts all 3 degrees of translational freedom, and 2 degrees of rotational freedom. This is precisely what the control arm and spring plate do. Thus, the wheel can only travel in an arc-shaped path, and cannot move inboard/outboard other than what is prescribed by the angle/orientation of the ball joints. Done.
The 2 joints left, for the shock, are simply attachment points to buffer the sprung from unsprung weight. They do not do any work to prevent inboard/outboard movement of the wheel.
Now, all that is for an all-monoball system. Because we have rubber at EVERY joint in the system in stock configuration, the stock suspension in reality has 6 degrees of freedom. It *generally* follows the arc path, but can be forced to rotate or translate in any direction.
My suggestion, take it or leave it, is to save your money on the rubber rear shock joints, and put it into the control arm and spring plate joints. Once you've done those 2, the only compliance left in the system is bump/droop - and it is very minor compared to spring rate and your tire sidewalls. Whatever you do, do NOT get rear shock monoballs WITHOUT doing monoball spring plates and control arms - it would be a hands-down complete waste of money, unless your existing rubber is rotted out or something bad - maybe from being left in the sun, or caught on fire, or something.
Everyone has an opinion, just offering mine in terms of better ways to spend your money. Putting that rear shock monoball money towards some really trick $$$ shocks will give way better bang for the buck imho.
Of course, front suspension is a totally different story. the ball joint at the bottom of the wheel carrier prevents sideways tranlsation, but the top of the shock maintains positive control of camber. Get the monoball shock mounts for those bad boys. Of course, if you don't get monoballs for the control (A) arms, you will get some amount of unwanted translation in/out as well as unwanted steering rotation.
Of course we are talking about driving hard - if we weren't, why would you replace any rubber in the system?
Suspension kinematics have nothing to do with where the engine is, and positive control over them is just as important in the front as in the back.
You have 4 joints per side in the 964 rear suspension - top and bottom of shock, control arm, spring plate. Assume that each joint only allows rotation and NOT translation, as is the case with monoball-type joints.
Now we have to put those 4 joints together to restrict 5 of the 6 possible degrees of freedom.
In the abstract, taking 2 rods at some fixed angle, rods attached together in a way that they can't move relative to each other, and putting metal ball joints on the end of those rods does exactly this. It restricts all 3 degrees of translational freedom, and 2 degrees of rotational freedom. This is precisely what the control arm and spring plate do. Thus, the wheel can only travel in an arc-shaped path, and cannot move inboard/outboard other than what is prescribed by the angle/orientation of the ball joints. Done.
The 2 joints left, for the shock, are simply attachment points to buffer the sprung from unsprung weight. They do not do any work to prevent inboard/outboard movement of the wheel.
Now, all that is for an all-monoball system. Because we have rubber at EVERY joint in the system in stock configuration, the stock suspension in reality has 6 degrees of freedom. It *generally* follows the arc path, but can be forced to rotate or translate in any direction.
My suggestion, take it or leave it, is to save your money on the rubber rear shock joints, and put it into the control arm and spring plate joints. Once you've done those 2, the only compliance left in the system is bump/droop - and it is very minor compared to spring rate and your tire sidewalls. Whatever you do, do NOT get rear shock monoballs WITHOUT doing monoball spring plates and control arms - it would be a hands-down complete waste of money, unless your existing rubber is rotted out or something bad - maybe from being left in the sun, or caught on fire, or something.
Everyone has an opinion, just offering mine in terms of better ways to spend your money. Putting that rear shock monoball money towards some really trick $$$ shocks will give way better bang for the buck imho.
Of course, front suspension is a totally different story. the ball joint at the bottom of the wheel carrier prevents sideways tranlsation, but the top of the shock maintains positive control of camber. Get the monoball shock mounts for those bad boys. Of course, if you don't get monoballs for the control (A) arms, you will get some amount of unwanted translation in/out as well as unwanted steering rotation.
Chance is right. Go ahead and skimp on the rear of your Porsche. You can see how important the front of a 911 is, and how comparatively unimportant the rear is, from these photos.
Make your own judgments about where you want your 964 to be most precise . . .
Last edited by Mark in Baltimore; 12-05-2007 at 11:23 PM.
12-06-2007, 12:18 AM
#11
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Thanks guys! Sorry to have started a debate. I was hoping to find where to get the solid RS top mounts.
I have talked to the Porsche dealers in town with no luck .
I have talked to the Porsche dealers in town with no luck .
12-06-2007, 12:44 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
Here you go, I would buy them for the reasons Mark pointed out. I have them in my car.
http://www.stableenergies.com/products.asp?dept=194
Does anyone know how makes solid bushings for the sway bars?
http://www.stableenergies.com/products.asp?dept=194
Does anyone know how makes solid bushings for the sway bars?
12-06-2007, 02:21 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
If I had an unlimited budget I would get the rear monoball shock mounts also, but I don't. Each upgraded component, all over the car, has a different level of improvement - "bang for the buck" if you will.
I disagree that every single component in the rear must be upgraded or you are "skimping".
The rear monoball shock mounts only provide more positive control on bump and rebound, and yes, that is indeed valuable. However, they provide a small fraction of the improvement of the spring plate and rear control arm monoballs, as well as the front shock and A-arm monoballs. I too, would buy them, but AFTER everything I've just listed, plus perhaps a few other choice items depending on what you've already got.
Pictures of cars that may or may not have properly tuned suspension SYSTEMS does not give any support to the importance of rear shock mount monoballs. No car will keep all 4 on the surface under all conditions, though that is what we strive for. Some of the cars pictured may have systems that are perfect for that particular track. Others, may have front sway bars that are too stiff - having absolutely nothing to do with rear at all. Others may have the rear sway bar too soft. One thing I can tell you for sure, none of the pictures shown are a result of translational movement of the rear shocks.
I have no dog in this hunt, I'm just trying to be helpful by providing some explanations and logical, reasonable support for an opinion on purchasing strategy/priority, the assumption being that there is a limited budget.
Personally, I find the value of this forum is in learning more about the underlying fundamentals, as opposed to just learning what everyone else is doing. I realize not everyone feels that way, and I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone who prefers the latter, or have suggested there is anything wrong with that.
I disagree that every single component in the rear must be upgraded or you are "skimping".
The rear monoball shock mounts only provide more positive control on bump and rebound, and yes, that is indeed valuable. However, they provide a small fraction of the improvement of the spring plate and rear control arm monoballs, as well as the front shock and A-arm monoballs. I too, would buy them, but AFTER everything I've just listed, plus perhaps a few other choice items depending on what you've already got.
Pictures of cars that may or may not have properly tuned suspension SYSTEMS does not give any support to the importance of rear shock mount monoballs. No car will keep all 4 on the surface under all conditions, though that is what we strive for. Some of the cars pictured may have systems that are perfect for that particular track. Others, may have front sway bars that are too stiff - having absolutely nothing to do with rear at all. Others may have the rear sway bar too soft. One thing I can tell you for sure, none of the pictures shown are a result of translational movement of the rear shocks.
I have no dog in this hunt, I'm just trying to be helpful by providing some explanations and logical, reasonable support for an opinion on purchasing strategy/priority, the assumption being that there is a limited budget.
Personally, I find the value of this forum is in learning more about the underlying fundamentals, as opposed to just learning what everyone else is doing. I realize not everyone feels that way, and I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone who prefers the latter, or have suggested there is anything wrong with that.