MAF ; Great 964 Upgrade ! In the TOP 5 ?
#61
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This thread kinda reminds you of the thread a year or so ago where some
super-promo-hype guys were selling the idea of riping-off the Bosch Motronic
system and replacing it with a Motec system on a stock engine. When the
dyno data were finally revealed and one normalized that data for just the
Motec mod, little to no real benefit resulted.
Once that failed, they focused on promoting a redesigned 964 motor for
super big bucks, please! The 964 is a 15+ year old car, leave well enough
alone and get a life.
super-promo-hype guys were selling the idea of riping-off the Bosch Motronic
system and replacing it with a Motec system on a stock engine. When the
dyno data were finally revealed and one normalized that data for just the
Motec mod, little to no real benefit resulted.
Once that failed, they focused on promoting a redesigned 964 motor for
super big bucks, please! The 964 is a 15+ year old car, leave well enough
alone and get a life.
That said, I do remember one where I posted 9m 964 Motec conversion results, corrected to DIN standards, that showed a 25 to 30hp increase over any equivalent Motronic remap/MAF conversion, maybe that one passed you by?
Given the level of interest on Rennlist for making the 964 faster, maybe you are the one that needs to "get a life" Loren? Have you ever tried posting a non-confrontational reply? You are obviously an intelligent bloke, so why do you insist on winding everyone up when all they are trying to do is enjoy one of their passions with like-minded fellow enthusiasts?
Derek, if this MAF worked for you then great, thanks for letting us know. If it also results in more sales for Vitesse and more happy customers then good for them as well.
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Here are the results from the first sets of Dyno runs, the number is there.
sorry I keep trying to attach it so you can just see it in the body of this message but it will not work
Really the only thing that it will prove when I take the stuff off, is the total gain. But the car does make it now.
sorry I keep trying to attach it so you can just see it in the body of this message but it will not work
Really the only thing that it will prove when I take the stuff off, is the total gain. But the car does make it now.
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#64
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"I do remember one where I posted 9m 964 Motec conversion results, corrected to DIN standards, that showed a 25 to 30hp increase over any equivalent Motronic remap/MAF conversion,"
Let's try and remember more clearly for those that may have missed that
thread where the final outcome via MANY posts concluded that the Motec
system IN ITSELF does not increase performance over a Motronic system,
i.e. given the same STOCK setup.
For those that are interested in improving their 964 overall driving experience,
a suspension improvement combined with a few DE track days probably will
result in a better cost benefit ratio than so-called performance mods.
Let's try and remember more clearly for those that may have missed that
thread where the final outcome via MANY posts concluded that the Motec
system IN ITSELF does not increase performance over a Motronic system,
i.e. given the same STOCK setup.
For those that are interested in improving their 964 overall driving experience,
a suspension improvement combined with a few DE track days probably will
result in a better cost benefit ratio than so-called performance mods.
#65
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Dynochart for Deoxford's 964 (modifications as described in this thread):
![](http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/brksy16/D_OXFORD_9641.jpg)
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But this isn't what the topic of this thread was about. I think there are a number of folks out there that want to be able to put the hammer down at the stoplight and keep up with a 996, etc. They may never take their 964 on a race track. And that's cool too. Just depends on how they want to enjoy their car.
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Greg,
You are right track time will prove it, and like your self I am sure I have over 20 days on the tracks here in the area. One thing about this car I love is the fact that much like my early car I can still out brake and corner must of the newer cars . But on the long straight at RA, I was still getting past by the high hp cars ( new M3's , 996, older turbos)
My last event with the old chip, I was doing much better to keep up with some of them , and really leaving them in the turns.
So i can't wait till the Jan DE, to see what will happen. The WOT now feels more smooth and powerful then before . When before I had a small "lag" at WOT till about 4k now it is smooth all the way though.
I have video of my last event , if some one can help me post it, and I will tape the next event as I do all of them .We maybe able to see some improvement there too.
You are right track time will prove it, and like your self I am sure I have over 20 days on the tracks here in the area. One thing about this car I love is the fact that much like my early car I can still out brake and corner must of the newer cars . But on the long straight at RA, I was still getting past by the high hp cars ( new M3's , 996, older turbos)
My last event with the old chip, I was doing much better to keep up with some of them , and really leaving them in the turns.
So i can't wait till the Jan DE, to see what will happen. The WOT now feels more smooth and powerful then before . When before I had a small "lag" at WOT till about 4k now it is smooth all the way though.
I have video of my last event , if some one can help me post it, and I will tape the next event as I do all of them .We maybe able to see some improvement there too.
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I'm sure most would agree; suspension and track time first, hp to follow. Thats the context of this discussion for me.
Greg- we may have some/much of these gains already from cat and primary delete and Wong chip. Of course the MAF could add further but its diminishing returns with the 3.6. That said, who's to say it wrong to pay $X for Y HP increase except the guy writing the cheque.
Greg- we may have some/much of these gains already from cat and primary delete and Wong chip. Of course the MAF could add further but its diminishing returns with the 3.6. That said, who's to say it wrong to pay $X for Y HP increase except the guy writing the cheque.
#69
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If A and B do essentially the same thing (and are interchangeable) and are swapped and nothing else changes, then we could assume that the net effect may be minimal. If however B, through superior design (read more modern or whatever you like) allows the existing system to be better utilised/optimised by further alterations to C that A wouldn’t support, is that not something that can, in part, be attributed back to having B in the system. Not a direct result of B, but a nevertheless an improvement that may not have been possible if A remained and however well C worked.
So what’s the problem, if replacing something in the system that allows something else to work better and the net result is a power increase, great.
Answers on a post card as to what A, B and C are? Similarly, if I’ve misunderstood what’s going on here, I’ll hear about that too![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
Some may need more power, some may need more skill, some both, I know that’s what I crave, so lets all chase what makes us happy.
So what’s the problem, if replacing something in the system that allows something else to work better and the net result is a power increase, great.
Answers on a post card as to what A, B and C are? Similarly, if I’ve misunderstood what’s going on here, I’ll hear about that too
![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
Some may need more power, some may need more skill, some both, I know that’s what I crave, so lets all chase what makes us happy.
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#70
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Oke here is an update of the dyno, Idont got an scanner, but here are the numbers, I wil ask mine brother inlaw to scan this to show you it al.
The Numbers are after 4 runs:
Corrected HP 277,8
Engine P. HP 282,2
Wheel P. HP 218,1
Max Power at 6180 rpm
Max Torque at 4935 rpm 346,3
Correction acc. to DIN 70020
Hope this is enough information for now in a week or 2 there wil be an update.
Oh the mods, LFW, cup pipe, cat.
The Numbers are after 4 runs:
Corrected HP 277,8
Engine P. HP 282,2
Wheel P. HP 218,1
Max Power at 6180 rpm
Max Torque at 4935 rpm 346,3
Correction acc. to DIN 70020
Hope this is enough information for now in a week or 2 there wil be an update.
Oh the mods, LFW, cup pipe, cat.
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.. which is the same reasoning as why a 911 2.7 running on 185/70 rear tyres goes no faster when you fit a 3.6 turbo engine. Very good Loren, you're a genius. I suppose the next deduction will be that the MAF in itself will not make any more power if it has to draw air through the square hole of the standard airbox?
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More power anyone?
#73
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Loren Its not all about the numbers.
A friend of mine has a 650bhp skyline, and i'll kill him thru country lanes with my meager what, 250bhp?
Its how it drives...
A friend of mine has a motec fitted to his 1.4 turbo italian shopping trolley. its been very very modified, and its done 150k miles, which i'm sure without a motec and good mapping it wouldn't have done.
I've never had a motec, i'd love to get one, it may not make much difference to the figures on paper, but it'll be a whole lot better on the road i'm sure. If only I had the money to visit Colin.
Whats seagull (stewart h on here?) got on his RS - IIRC he is just over the 300bhp mark?
A friend of mine has a 650bhp skyline, and i'll kill him thru country lanes with my meager what, 250bhp?
Its how it drives...
A friend of mine has a motec fitted to his 1.4 turbo italian shopping trolley. its been very very modified, and its done 150k miles, which i'm sure without a motec and good mapping it wouldn't have done.
I've never had a motec, i'd love to get one, it may not make much difference to the figures on paper, but it'll be a whole lot better on the road i'm sure. If only I had the money to visit Colin.
Whats seagull (stewart h on here?) got on his RS - IIRC he is just over the 300bhp mark?
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I'm glad Leren made his comments. That's why I love rennlist. People aren't afraid to voice their opinion. Therefore, I'll give you mine:
I'm a scientist by education. I'm been taught to decrease variables to one and run a control. That means; dyno whatcha got, make one change at a time, and dyno after each change. If you do that, your results are virtually indisputable! If not, you get a 5 page (up to now) thread.
I quickly got caught up in this thread, then Loren gave his dissenting voice of reason. Is he right? I don't know, not enough evidence to do anything but guess. I hope it works! I need 30-50 more HP or 100 less pounds to kick a** in my respective race classes.
So please, keep debating. And when someone really wants to end this, dyno before and after!!!
I'm a scientist by education. I'm been taught to decrease variables to one and run a control. That means; dyno whatcha got, make one change at a time, and dyno after each change. If you do that, your results are virtually indisputable! If not, you get a 5 page (up to now) thread.
I quickly got caught up in this thread, then Loren gave his dissenting voice of reason. Is he right? I don't know, not enough evidence to do anything but guess. I hope it works! I need 30-50 more HP or 100 less pounds to kick a** in my respective race classes.
So please, keep debating. And when someone really wants to end this, dyno before and after!!!
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