What effect to coils have on power?
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
What effect to coils have on power?
I've just replaced my coils and believe that I am getting noticeably more power.
Is this technically feasable?
How would damaged coils effect performance?
Would a bad coil produce a weak spark?
I did feel what I thought were misses at times suggesting failed spark. I can see clearly where that would effect performance.
One of the coils would not start the car suggesting the possibility that one of the two plugs in each cylinder was not firing. How big an effect would this have on peformance.
Is this technically feasable?
How would damaged coils effect performance?
Would a bad coil produce a weak spark?
I did feel what I thought were misses at times suggesting failed spark. I can see clearly where that would effect performance.
One of the coils would not start the car suggesting the possibility that one of the two plugs in each cylinder was not firing. How big an effect would this have on peformance.
#2
Dave,
I noticed a difference on my car when I fixed a broken coil. (both sets were then firing when only 1 was before). It was suggested the difference should have been small, but it was unmistakable in the higher ranges (4k+) for me, for whatever reason. With the bad coil the car just didnt feel right. It felt like it had more to give, but it just wouldnt.
So I can believe it.
I noticed a difference on my car when I fixed a broken coil. (both sets were then firing when only 1 was before). It was suggested the difference should have been small, but it was unmistakable in the higher ranges (4k+) for me, for whatever reason. With the bad coil the car just didnt feel right. It felt like it had more to give, but it just wouldnt.
So I can believe it.
#3
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Something as simple as a shorted winding turn on either primary/secondary coil winding will reduce the coil output energy . That leads to partial combustion/misfire !
How about just pulling a top and bottom plug lead and putting a plug up each .
Ground the plugs with jump leads and take a look at the blue sparks with the motor on idle ?
Measuring Ohms on a coil is a waste of time in comparison . One thing that is worth a try is to give the coil tops a good , thorogh clean .
Sounds like you have both spotted something not 100 % !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Geoff
How about just pulling a top and bottom plug lead and putting a plug up each .
Ground the plugs with jump leads and take a look at the blue sparks with the motor on idle ?
Measuring Ohms on a coil is a waste of time in comparison . One thing that is worth a try is to give the coil tops a good , thorogh clean .
Sounds like you have both spotted something not 100 % !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Geoff
#4
Rennlist Member
Interesting. I would be interested to see a summary of the diagnositc steps you went through that led you to replace the coils. I am sure it wasn't the first fix on your list when you started out, Can you review the symptons and steps you took that led to the coil change?
#5
Drifting
Thread Starter
Interesting. I would be interested to see a summary of the diagnositc steps you went through that led you to replace the coils. I am sure it wasn't the first fix on your list when you started out, Can you review the symptons and steps you took that led to the coil change?
I also noticed a bit of missing in the mid rpm range; 3-4k. Not always, but sometimes.
I had thought it was an oil overfill issue because it always seemed to be worse when the oil was over filled (twice by a shop, once by me). It seemed better after a good cleaning, but recently had returned. Especially when cold.
I also suspected the Cylinder Head Temperature (CHT) sensor, but it seems to indicate reasonable values during startup (using a Hammer to read actual values). It's difficult to tell just how accurate it is without a reference value, but the cold value and the warm up values seem to run within the expected range.
I have no record of the ignition wires being changed, but I see no sparks in the dark or with water misting.
A recent thread about coils got me thinking and I did the very simple test of pulling the igniter wires from the front of the coils. I pulled the secondary and the car would not start. I then pulled just the primary and the car started, but ran poorly.
After installing the new coils the idle runs stronger and smoother. It no longer dips low when stopping. The cold running is now completely smooth and strong. And, no more missing at any point in the rpm range. It feels to me like there is more power, but I have no evidence to back that up.
Hope that helps.
#7
Drifting
Thread Starter
The ignition coils are located in the engine bay, on the left hand side fender, forward of the fuse panel.
I have a couple of pics. Sorry for the poor quality of the lower pic; camera phone.
Below the red arrow are the two coils with covers. Circled in blue are the igniter connections. Pull each connection and try to start the car on just one coil. It should start and run on either coil. I was able to test this without removing the blower.
Ignition Coils. On the left is the new one.
I have a couple of pics. Sorry for the poor quality of the lower pic; camera phone.
Below the red arrow are the two coils with covers. Circled in blue are the igniter connections. Pull each connection and try to start the car on just one coil. It should start and run on either coil. I was able to test this without removing the blower.
Ignition Coils. On the left is the new one.
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#8
Drifting
Thread Starter
To remove the coils there are two allen head screws. One is right between the igniter connections. The allen wrench goes through the hole. The other is between the covers. Careful with the upper, it comes loose, has a washer and is kind of small. The lower remains in place within the ***'y.
Pull the plastic covers off and there are a couple of nuts to pull the wires.
Here's another pic showing a close up of the coils mounted. I think the "good" pics are from Jason. Thanks!
Pull the plastic covers off and there are a couple of nuts to pull the wires.
Here's another pic showing a close up of the coils mounted. I think the "good" pics are from Jason. Thanks!
#10
Drifting
Thread Starter
Coil Information
I've been doing a bit of research on coils. I don't have much info, but I thought what I had might prove useful to someone . . .
Code:
Ignition Coils Links Understanding Ignition Coils http://www.forparts.com/ICignitioncoil01.03.htm Multi-Coil Ignition Systems http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us20406.htm Symptoms of Bad Coils Cranking, no-spark condition Severe backfire Temperature or humidity-related starting or stalling problems Weak spark Hard starting Hesitation or misfire under load or when accelerating (this was mine) Failure Modes - springer3 Electro-mechanical forces cause micro-movements in the windings Coil wire can break (total failure) Short out individual turns of coil (lower output) Short from primary to secondary winding (internal arcing; xmas tree) Testing pull each igniter connection, one at a time, and try to start engine engine shld run (fine) on either coil test spark shld be a nice blue spark. if any other color (red, orange, yellow) then coil bad (low output) blue - ionized oxygen red - ionized nitrogen how to test (http://www.forparts.com/ICignitioncoil01.03.htm) a) open-circuit spark output a good coil produces a bright blue spark that jumps a 1/4-inch gap on a spark tester b) passive resistance in the primary and secondary coil circuits although the resistance test is not a definitive measure of a coil's electrical integrity, a coil should be replaced if the resistance values don't fall within specifications c) current rise or "ramp" through the primary windings using a low-amperage current probe to measure the current "ramp" through the primary ignition circuit is perhaps the most definitive method of determining the electrical integrity of the coil and the quality of the triggering action why coils fail Because worn spark plugs and open-circuit spark plug wires force ignition coils to operate at maximum output, neglected ignition system maintenance is the most common cause of modern ignition coil failure. As the spark plug air gap widens due to normal erosion, increased voltage is required to create a spark in the combustion chamber. This increased voltage, in turn, demands more current flow through the coil's primary circuit. And, this increased primary current flow can overload the ICM's primary transistor. The increased secondary current created by the ignition coil also can increase to the point that it perforates the secondary circuit in the coil itself. Warning An important point to keep in mind with respect to all types of ignition coils is that when the magnetic field collapses, the high-voltage surge has to go someplace. If it can't go to the spark plug, it will find another path to ground - which may be back through the ignition module, PCM driver circuit or through the insulation inside the coil itself. This can be very damaging to these parts. So never disconnect a plug wire or COP coil while the engine is running. It can be very damaging as well as dangerous to you should you become the path to ground.
#11
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2008
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So if I mine starts reasonably okay with either coil disconnected (not quite as good as with two) and maybe only runs slightly rough after that, but otherwise seems okay - I should leave the coils alone? I didn't get into the more involved steps you posted. Like many, I'm always ready to optimize my engine, so I thought I'd give it a try. Thanks.
#12
I wonder how many sets of coils are going to be replaced as a result of these threads. Sometimes it seems as if we are like med students suffering from every disease we happen to be studying.
None the less, I get that same pang of doubt when reading some of these threads.
Dave, ask one of your general aviation friends what the difference is between running on one or both ignition systems. Very similar situation.
Piston engine airplanes allow you to switch between either system or both. I have often wondered if it would be possible to install an ignition switch in our cars. This would allow us to check the functionality routinely and easily from the drivers seat.
Take care,
JNeteler
None the less, I get that same pang of doubt when reading some of these threads.
Dave, ask one of your general aviation friends what the difference is between running on one or both ignition systems. Very similar situation.
Piston engine airplanes allow you to switch between either system or both. I have often wondered if it would be possible to install an ignition switch in our cars. This would allow us to check the functionality routinely and easily from the drivers seat.
Take care,
JNeteler
#13
Drifting
Thread Starter
I've been watching these threads closely since I changed my coils. At first I was a strong advocate for changing them. Now, I'm not so sure. I'm still an advocate. Just not so strongly.
There is no question that my car runs better with the new coils. Reading about how coils break down and how high voltage failures or shorts are difficult, if not impossible, to check with simple continuity tests makes me think there is something to be said for replacement.
I have a lot of respect for the smart folks on this board and simply don't have the background or experience to suggest that I know better.
In the end we all make our own decisions. Some favour preventative replacement as justified maintenance. Some wait for definitive failure before spending hard earned cash. I can appreciate both approaches.
In the end, I'm happy with my choice.
92silver964: Wish I could give you better advice. I'm in the enviable position that $100 is not a great hardship, so I would make the change if my car ran a bit rougher on just one, or the other coil. Mine, in fact, failed to start on one, so the choice for me was clear. If you find yourself in the NY area I'd be happy to let you try my coils to see if there is any difference. Actually, it'd be an interesting test.
All the best.
There is no question that my car runs better with the new coils. Reading about how coils break down and how high voltage failures or shorts are difficult, if not impossible, to check with simple continuity tests makes me think there is something to be said for replacement.
I have a lot of respect for the smart folks on this board and simply don't have the background or experience to suggest that I know better.
In the end we all make our own decisions. Some favour preventative replacement as justified maintenance. Some wait for definitive failure before spending hard earned cash. I can appreciate both approaches.
In the end, I'm happy with my choice.
92silver964: Wish I could give you better advice. I'm in the enviable position that $100 is not a great hardship, so I would make the change if my car ran a bit rougher on just one, or the other coil. Mine, in fact, failed to start on one, so the choice for me was clear. If you find yourself in the NY area I'd be happy to let you try my coils to see if there is any difference. Actually, it'd be an interesting test.
All the best.
#14
Burning Brakes
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]Piston engine airplanes allow you to switch between either system or both. I have often wondered if it would be possible to install an ignition switch in our cars. This would allow us to check the functionality routinely and easily from the drivers seat.
Take care,
JNeteler
Take care,
JNeteler