race911

Before I see someone go to all that effort (and money), take a look here: http://www.pca.org/clubrace/2003_res...a/bluegrid.htm and note positions 14, 16 and 19. This was the only time I came across any cup cars to run with, and now we no longer do club races in Northern California. Was fun being part of a pro/spectator weekend while it lasted!

My RSA #1 was a sunroof/LSD/no-AC car with nothing more than shocks/springs/bars and brake pads from factory stock (and the obvious safety gear). Yes, even the catalytic converter was on the car (I did remove muffler #2.) Came in just under 2800lbs w/ me and 1/2 tank of gas. And I ran 225/255 Kumho V700's v. the other guys on 245/275 Hoosiers.

Anyone know who has those cars now? Can't be too many of the Raspberry's out there, and I think McGlynn (of Joengbloed wheels) said his had been damaged pretty severely and pieced back together.

tonytaylor

But it was a simple case of modifying the 964 . There is nothing on an RS shell that can't be done aftermarket ( and improved on ! ) All the differences are known and can be replicated. The seam welding of the shell, for example, is barely relevant unless you are running slicks and have a welded cage.
The RS specific components make for a superior track car to the standard 964 but there isn't many of those components you would choose over later factory or aftermarket parts. How useful are the hiher 1st and 2nd gear ratios on track ? How much extra hp does that hand assembled engine give over a modified stock one?
The 964RS is a very well judged package for it's time and the way it works together is the reason it's held in high esteem today but it isn't the best a 964 can be.
A 993RS clubsport is a better car than a 964RSanytype. I agree they moved it ( the 993RS) road friendly but even on track it wasn't a backwards step by the factory.

forklift

Colin, (38D) has Jerry's Rasberry and is racing it this weekend at Mosport: https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/367910-race-update-pca-at-mosport.html

I didn't say I was doing any of that stuff (but might when the current stuff breaks), just what the comparison would be w/ those upgrades (which is what this thread is about)...but handling wise, mine is probably pretty close or possibly better now than a stock RS/Cup.

The sunroof is as much of a headroom issue for me, I am 6'2" and didn't think of helmet room when I bought the car.

The chip and R&P is for acceleration, and would put me in C class. My plan for now is to race in D, or whatever D becomes after the shuffle of classes in the offseason.

I do plan on a cage someday, and that is obviously for safety.

If I do get a R&P, it will be when I am in the tranny anyway, not "just because". Since that will be the thing to move me to C, I would get a chip, not much $ for that. No $ for any of this now anyway, just looking forward to the years to come.

Btw, Euro Cups are no longer in D class, now GTC1, you might already know.

38D

Yes, I now own the Rubystone cup. To my knowledge, it is 1 of 3 built.

race911

Well, it's not much.........but you can kinda see it up the grid from my car. CANNOT believe I did not take pictures of either of them. GRRRRRR......

SimonExtreme

Tony

That is a matter of debate. Defining a car as better is very hard. Is better faster? Sure the 993RS is quicker but most agree that in all formats, it is a blunter tool. It is often said that the mods that allow the 993RS to be more user friendly on the road lessen it on the track and I know a number of specialists who say that a 964RS clubsport is better than a 993RS Clubsport. It is logical, seeing that both clubsports use the same suspension as the basic car. The more compliant front suspension of the 993RS reduces the sharpness of steering and turn in.

If you had compared Cup cars, then maybe, but there is little in it as can be seen from lap times from the era. The difference in lap times is also a little dubious, as the later cars used better rubber and had more power. Considering that, it has been suggested that the gap should be bigger, as on some circuits it really was negligable.

As for aftermarket stuff being better, it is in theory. However, for all but full time professional teams, I cannot agree. Most of the guys I know who seriously race air cooled RS's (964/993) have found that the Porsche stuff provides a very good all round compromise and that the time needed to set up good adjustable kit doesn't warrant the investment. To some extent it matters which tracks you are talking about! There were some interesting threads on this on the 993RS forum on BCGB about 2 years ago.

tonytaylor

But that's what forums like these are for

As you say the 993RS was faster on track with better road manners and so from a purely objective point of view could be considered the " better" car. From a subjective driving POV the better car is matter of personal taste.

Similarly the front suspension; there's more than one 964RS running the softer 993RS front struts for more compliance and the 993RS can be stiffened up using aftermarket struts. FWIW I'm using the 993RS front suspension with stiffer struts ( stiffer than 964RS as well) and turn in is a revalation. It depends on what track you use but on bumpy corners IMO the 993 set up gives better control.

Cup cars are interesting in that they're a single make race car which removes the element of competition. The cars are closely related to the road cars for promotional purposes and are not as extensively modified as they could be. The retention of the electric rear wing on the 964 cups is a good example.

You're quite right about the standard Porsche suspension being well suited to the car. The factory spring and damper rates are well chosen. ( reminds me of my experiences of two 968s both supercharged, both driven by the same driver. I couldn't keep up with one of them but he couldn't keep me off with the other. The slower one was running remote reservoir motons and the driver pointed to them as the reason for his lack of pace)
As to aftermarket ( and I included later Porsche parts) there's lots of room for improvement on the stock 964RS to the extent most RSs are modified.

mjshira

this is a great thread fellas, keep the info coming.

StanUK951

Simple question: does the RS shifter for the 964 Carrera 4 raise the gear stick in the same way as the RS or does it stay the same and just reduce the throw?

Looking at this from Type 911:

https://sslrelay.com/type911shop.co....M2yDb6rBX3DreS

PN: 964 424 015 08

From what I can tell when fitting to a C4 you have to modify the undertray. Searched but could not see... Also some talk about another part that goes with this, assume it's not actually needed?

My car is a late 1991 Carrera 4. Thanks.

freedman

Yes you need to dimple the undertray, ther is a pic at the bottom of the ad

No theres is no addtional part (only used on C2)

StanUK951

Thanks Freedman. Meant to post this as a new topic. Sorry for reviving an old thread...

Does it raise the gear lever 'a la' RS?

freedman

Not 100% as Ive not seen one in a C4 but it's a factory part so i imagine it is exactly the same as in an RS

HiWind

I may have misunderstood but when I installed the OEM RS shifter into my car last week (1990 C2 tho)
it was necessary to install the oval bushes (required cutting - lots of pics; only rotate if you already have them) but definitely NOT to dimple the undertray.
Is it different with the C4?

ps - per Cupcar (Bob's) many posts on the topic of RS shifters, the raise is 4-5cm, the throw a bit shorter too. IMO the main 'win' is the lift,
the shorter throw is less noticeable.

StanUK951

My understanding is it is different with the C4, hence not needing to 'dimple' the undertray on a C2 and also hence my question that you don't get the lift (increased height of shifter) on the C4 because it is installed lower...?

Jaye Bass

Thread re-animation.