What is Better for Racing? C2 or C4??
04-21-2007, 11:19 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
What is Better for Racing? C2 or C4??
I'm looking to by a club car that I can use for tarmac Rallies, hill climbs and Track Racing.
I was wondering is you guys could help with the following questions;
1) Which model is faster for these events?
2) Is the C4 much heavier to affect the performance over the handling benefits?
3) Are the C4's more maintenance with dual clutch plates?
Your input would be much appreciated.
Regards
I was wondering is you guys could help with the following questions;
1) Which model is faster for these events?
2) Is the C4 much heavier to affect the performance over the handling benefits?
3) Are the C4's more maintenance with dual clutch plates?
Your input would be much appreciated.
Regards
04-21-2007, 03:26 PM
#3
Rennlist
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Originally Posted by Condor Man
I'm looking to by a club car that I can use for tarmac Rallies, hill climbs and Track Racing.
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
04-21-2007, 07:04 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Larry Herman
I think that you have to decide which of the activities should take precedence. I think that a C4 will be a more forgiving car to drive, and that would make it more attractive for the rallies and hill climbs. The C2 will be faster on the race track, at least in the dry.
I agree that if I seek forgiveness the C4 will deliver, especially in an event like Targa Tasmania in the Rain.
However I just want to make sure that it will be competitive for the Porsche Club days that are usually run on the track.
04-21-2007, 10:23 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
FWIW the C4 is one class below the C2 in PCA club racing, most likely because of the extra 200 or so pounds it carries. Either they aren't very competitive or there just aren't that many being raced because most of the top cars in that class are 944s, 3.2 Carreras, and SCs. You may want to check the classification system of the racing series you'll be running in and see which cars are winning. There's at least one person on this board who races and loves his C4s and I'm sure he'll chime in. 
04-21-2007, 11:05 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Chris M.
FWIW the C4 is one class below the C2 in PCA club racing, most likely because of the extra 200 or so pounds it carries. Either they aren't very competitive or there just aren't that many being raced because most of the top cars in that class are 944s, 3.2 Carreras, and SCs. You may want to check the classification system of the racing series you'll be running in and see which cars are winning. There's at least one person on this board who races and loves his C4s and I'm sure he'll chime in.
Thanks Chris,
I checked the class for the vehicle and it's not even listed. Therefore I assumed that it would be falling under the 964 C2 Class.
Regards
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04-22-2007, 07:27 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
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Where are you in Oz. If yopu are planning to do the PC of NSW, I am pretty certain you would be in class C with both C2 and C4, on the basis that 993 C2 and C4 are in the same class.
However, if you are planning to do the TT, will you be keeping the car standard? If you are in the Sydney area, I would have a chat with Richard at PR Technology, who has a fair bit of experience in running cars in the TT and PC of NSW. Plus the sponsor the PC series.
There is no doubt in my mind that I would get a C2 and get it sorted so that it stays in class C.
However, if you are planning to do the TT, will you be keeping the car standard? If you are in the Sydney area, I would have a chat with Richard at PR Technology, who has a fair bit of experience in running cars in the TT and PC of NSW. Plus the sponsor the PC series.
There is no doubt in my mind that I would get a C2 and get it sorted so that it stays in class C.
04-22-2007, 02:58 PM
#9
Track Day
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Nice topic, as I was about to ask the same questions! I have sold my old 924 Turbo and found a couple of nice 964's, both C2 and C4. I will race the car 10-15 track days a year, otherwise drive it on the street. I can compensate the weight penalty of a C4 - compared to a C2- by tuning it ( the class I look at here in Sweden stipulates at least 5kg/HP). So is the C4 still noticeably "handicapped" compared to a C2, if i tune the C4 to give about 20 hp more???? Is no fun buying a car that's not competitive at all...
So- please keep on replying to Condor Man's questions
So- please keep on replying to Condor Man's questions
04-22-2007, 07:39 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
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OK, a few points on C2 against C4.
In the dry,. I believe that for the same power to weight, I would be quicker in a C2. Total weight does have an impact on handling characteristics due to the extra inertia. I would also expect that a C2 can be made to display a range of different handling characteristics either through suspension adjustment or driver style. My experiences of 4WD says there is less flexibility in this.
In addition, if you are hauling extra weight around, it puts more strain on components. I would expect that a C2 would be cheaper to run as it has less to go wrong.
Finally, the problem I have always had with 4FD on a track is that it simply isn't as satisfying to drive as a RWD car. I used to have a rather special Evo which was effectively a Group N car with 450bhp. It would beat almost any tin top on the track, even with me driving. However, since then I have driven a succession of RWD cars, all of which are noticably slower but a lot more fun. I would also argue that a RWD Porsche gives you so much more scope to improve.
As the 4WD will only give you any real benefit in poor track conditions, I really wouldn't go there!
In the dry,. I believe that for the same power to weight, I would be quicker in a C2. Total weight does have an impact on handling characteristics due to the extra inertia. I would also expect that a C2 can be made to display a range of different handling characteristics either through suspension adjustment or driver style. My experiences of 4WD says there is less flexibility in this.
In addition, if you are hauling extra weight around, it puts more strain on components. I would expect that a C2 would be cheaper to run as it has less to go wrong.
Finally, the problem I have always had with 4FD on a track is that it simply isn't as satisfying to drive as a RWD car. I used to have a rather special Evo which was effectively a Group N car with 450bhp. It would beat almost any tin top on the track, even with me driving. However, since then I have driven a succession of RWD cars, all of which are noticably slower but a lot more fun. I would also argue that a RWD Porsche gives you so much more scope to improve.
As the 4WD will only give you any real benefit in poor track conditions, I really wouldn't go there!
04-23-2007, 08:46 AM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by SimonExtreme
OK, a few points on C2 against C4.
In the dry,. I believe that for the same power to weight, I would be quicker in a C2. Total weight does have an impact on handling characteristics due to the extra inertia. I would also expect that a C2 can be made to display a range of different handling characteristics either through suspension adjustment or driver style. My experiences of 4WD says there is less flexibility in this.
In addition, if you are hauling extra weight around, it puts more strain on components. I would expect that a C2 would be cheaper to run as it has less to go wrong.
Finally, the problem I have always had with 4FD on a track is that it simply isn't as satisfying to drive as a RWD car. I used to have a rather special Evo which was effectively a Group N car with 450bhp. It would beat almost any tin top on the track, even with me driving. However, since then I have driven a succession of RWD cars, all of which are noticably slower but a lot more fun. I would also argue that a RWD Porsche gives you so much more scope to improve.
As the 4WD will only give you any real benefit in poor track conditions, I really wouldn't go there!
In the dry,. I believe that for the same power to weight, I would be quicker in a C2. Total weight does have an impact on handling characteristics due to the extra inertia. I would also expect that a C2 can be made to display a range of different handling characteristics either through suspension adjustment or driver style. My experiences of 4WD says there is less flexibility in this.
In addition, if you are hauling extra weight around, it puts more strain on components. I would expect that a C2 would be cheaper to run as it has less to go wrong.
Finally, the problem I have always had with 4FD on a track is that it simply isn't as satisfying to drive as a RWD car. I used to have a rather special Evo which was effectively a Group N car with 450bhp. It would beat almost any tin top on the track, even with me driving. However, since then I have driven a succession of RWD cars, all of which are noticably slower but a lot more fun. I would also argue that a RWD Porsche gives you so much more scope to improve.
As the 4WD will only give you any real benefit in poor track conditions, I really wouldn't go there!
Thanks Simon,
Firstly, I am in Melbourne and I looked up the comp reg's which lists eligible cars for each category and for some reason 964 C4's aren't even listed.
I agree ith you regarding the C4 may cost more to run and also would not be as rewarding to drive. It's just very hard to find a good C2 at the moment.
The 996 tt is an awesome car and I just don't have the heart to kill it at the moment as I only have 8,000 KM's. That's why I am looking to buy a 964.
Thanks for your replies.
04-23-2007, 01:10 PM
#12
Drifting
I don't race my 964, only DE and TT. I can say, in general, having the extra weight is a penalty, that is unless you can capitalize on the traction of the AWD system. For instance, getting a jump on people in slow speed corners or braking later/trailing later knowing you will have more traction mid-corner than a C2. A C4 is definitely more complicated, and thus more prone to failure, so that should figure in your decision as well.
04-24-2007, 07:49 AM
#13
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Hi,
I have a 964 C4 and a good friend has 964 C2, which we regualarly swap at track days. As has been said above, a C4 will be better on some circuits than a C2. As your in Victoria, I've found my C4 to be consistently faster than a 964 C2 at Morwell, but at Phillip Island the C2 definately has the edge. On More open tracks, the C2's will usually be better.
Some days i just love the C4 and other days, I want to swap to a C2. I completely agree with SimonExpreme that a C2 will give you more room to improve.
Last year the C4 was in the C for the Porsche Club of Victoria and the C2 was in class B.
With regard to clutches, I don't think you'll find much difference between them.
Obviously you should go for a C4 as I just so happens that I've got my C4 on the market
, so PM me if your interested 
.
Regards
DavidP
I have a 964 C4 and a good friend has 964 C2, which we regualarly swap at track days. As has been said above, a C4 will be better on some circuits than a C2. As your in Victoria, I've found my C4 to be consistently faster than a 964 C2 at Morwell, but at Phillip Island the C2 definately has the edge. On More open tracks, the C2's will usually be better.
Some days i just love the C4 and other days, I want to swap to a C2. I completely agree with SimonExpreme that a C2 will give you more room to improve.
Last year the C4 was in the C for the Porsche Club of Victoria and the C2 was in class B.
With regard to clutches, I don't think you'll find much difference between them.
Obviously you should go for a C4 as I just so happens that I've got my C4 on the market
, so PM me if your interested .Regards
DavidP
04-24-2007, 06:46 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
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Nice post, DavidP. I think that what you are saying is that on the tight circuits, the traction on the C4 helps.
However, I do wonder, looking at your aviator, whether suspension differences have anything to do with things. I would guess from the amount of roll shown in the picture you are running standard suspension. Is the C4 doing the same?
Are there any other differences that might account for the difference between the cars - tyres, wheel size for instance?
However, I do wonder, looking at your aviator, whether suspension differences have anything to do with things. I would guess from the amount of roll shown in the picture you are running standard suspension. Is the C4 doing the same?
Are there any other differences that might account for the difference between the cars - tyres, wheel size for instance?
04-24-2007, 10:29 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by SimonExtreme
Nice post, DavidP. I think that what you are saying is that on the tight circuits, the traction on the C4 helps.
However, I do wonder, looking at your aviator, whether suspension differences have anything to do with things. I would guess from the amount of roll shown in the picture you are running standard suspension. Is the C4 doing the same?
Are there any other differences that might account for the difference between the cars - tyres, wheel size for instance?
However, I do wonder, looking at your aviator, whether suspension differences have anything to do with things. I would guess from the amount of roll shown in the picture you are running standard suspension. Is the C4 doing the same?
Are there any other differences that might account for the difference between the cars - tyres, wheel size for instance?
Then she spent 20K at Weltmeister getting the uber stiff setup, bigger r spec rubber etc. Now hers is more like an RS and the only place I seem to be able to beat her is Morwell.
We both found that on a cicuit like Phillip Island or Sandown, R spec Rubber makes at least 5 seconds a lap difference.
The biggest factor is obviously the driver, but as we swap cars, then this allows for that.
The bit on the C4 that makes me go faster, that no C2 has, is the green light of understeer on the dash: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...5&page=1&pp=15 when ever it comes on I know that more power isn't going to help.
David P