What is Better for Racing? C2 or C4??
04-25-2007, 12:29 AM
#16
Drifting
There have been plently of very fast 4WD race cars over the years. I run races with highly modded EVO's and they get around the track pretty well. 200 lbs is a lot of extra weight on a race track however and it will take the correct suspension set-up to make it work correctly.
Phil
Phil
04-25-2007, 01:32 AM
#17
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
it all depends on who you run with...
Hi Guys! These threads are my favorite!!! He he 
The C2 is really a different car versus a C4 - a C4 drives differently than a C2, it weighs more than a C2, and puts less power to the ground than a C2. That's why almost every race club classifies them separately from the C4 in the higher power to weight ratio group (12.9 for the C4, 12.3 for the C2, 12.0 for the RSA).
I just got back from a POC race at Willow Springs where my C4 widebody lost its "track virginity" with an R6 class win - ye haw!!! It was a fun weekend because I also instructed my buddy in his 94 C2 (it's a stock car) so I could feel the difference between the two cars back to back.
I prefer a C4 for many reasons. First of all, I am a huge fan of the technology and how it affects the handling. For me, the technology has been no less reliable for either my street C4's or track C4's. I raced a short wheel base 1965 911 for 9 years - call it getting older, married, who knows; but that car was a handful to keep aimed properly and I am done with that, especially in a hectic racing environment. The C4 is a far more predictable car to drive at the limit, especially when cornering side by side with another car through a turn that's scary enough to take by yourself! In a DE you get to take the ideal route through turns; in racing you're all over the place, sometimes with two wheels in the dirt (happened this weekend twice when I got pinched while trying to pass).
The other main reason I like the C4 is that it's a J-class car; a C2 is a K-class (higher). If I run as a Prepared car (which I do), in a C2 I'd be in the R5 race class which is inhabited by lightweight SC's and Carrera's that are full-on race cars (V-class which is above Prepared) with GIGANTIC wings, slicks, fiber body parts, plastic windows, etc. I don't want a car like that. A C2 or RSA is totally outgunned in R5 with the POC. By having a C4, I get to run R6 as a prepared car (suspension and tires change) which is a much more appropriate class in the POC for me. I can actually have a streetable car that is fun to drive and competitive with my buddies that also drive their streetable cars to race. With the POC, a C2/RSA won't be competitive if it remains a streetable car and runs in R5.
Yes, the C4 is heavier... my fat car had an off-track weight at the end of my race of 3170lbs with me (200lbs) and 1/4 tank of gas - I'm allowed an off-track weigth of 3106 lbs. My buddy with a 73 911 with a 3.2 engine is a totally different animal at 2600lbs but we were back and forth for the entire race; thanks to some consistent tires and a couple moments of strategic blocking, I managed to hold my position until the checkered flag
Does a C4 limit one's room to grow as a driver, or less rewarding to drive? What reward are you guys looking for? You want a crazy car that will likely spin you into a wall or the car next to you - well, you can achieve that in any car by crappy driving or poor setup, but especially a SWB pre-1969 911! Learning to drive any car well is a challenge in and of itself.
Find a car that is in good shape so you can enjoy learning to drive it versus cursing it for not being reliable enough! So if all you can find is a nice C4 and crappy C2's... I bet you'd enjoy the reliable car more!! At the amateur driving/rallying/touring/racing level, it probably makes little difference which one you end up with! It makes more of a difference to have a car you are comfortable with so you can actually enjoy driving it, versus being scared to try to drive it harder.
The C2 is really a different car versus a C4 - a C4 drives differently than a C2, it weighs more than a C2, and puts less power to the ground than a C2. That's why almost every race club classifies them separately from the C4 in the higher power to weight ratio group (12.9 for the C4, 12.3 for the C2, 12.0 for the RSA).
I just got back from a POC race at Willow Springs where my C4 widebody lost its "track virginity" with an R6 class win - ye haw!!! It was a fun weekend because I also instructed my buddy in his 94 C2 (it's a stock car) so I could feel the difference between the two cars back to back.
I prefer a C4 for many reasons. First of all, I am a huge fan of the technology and how it affects the handling. For me, the technology has been no less reliable for either my street C4's or track C4's. I raced a short wheel base 1965 911 for 9 years - call it getting older, married, who knows; but that car was a handful to keep aimed properly and I am done with that, especially in a hectic racing environment. The C4 is a far more predictable car to drive at the limit, especially when cornering side by side with another car through a turn that's scary enough to take by yourself! In a DE you get to take the ideal route through turns; in racing you're all over the place, sometimes with two wheels in the dirt (happened this weekend twice when I got pinched while trying to pass).
The other main reason I like the C4 is that it's a J-class car; a C2 is a K-class (higher). If I run as a Prepared car (which I do), in a C2 I'd be in the R5 race class which is inhabited by lightweight SC's and Carrera's that are full-on race cars (V-class which is above Prepared) with GIGANTIC wings, slicks, fiber body parts, plastic windows, etc. I don't want a car like that. A C2 or RSA is totally outgunned in R5 with the POC. By having a C4, I get to run R6 as a prepared car (suspension and tires change) which is a much more appropriate class in the POC for me. I can actually have a streetable car that is fun to drive and competitive with my buddies that also drive their streetable cars to race. With the POC, a C2/RSA won't be competitive if it remains a streetable car and runs in R5.
Yes, the C4 is heavier... my fat car had an off-track weight at the end of my race of 3170lbs with me (200lbs) and 1/4 tank of gas - I'm allowed an off-track weigth of 3106 lbs. My buddy with a 73 911 with a 3.2 engine is a totally different animal at 2600lbs but we were back and forth for the entire race; thanks to some consistent tires and a couple moments of strategic blocking, I managed to hold my position until the checkered flag
Does a C4 limit one's room to grow as a driver, or less rewarding to drive? What reward are you guys looking for? You want a crazy car that will likely spin you into a wall or the car next to you - well, you can achieve that in any car by crappy driving or poor setup, but especially a SWB pre-1969 911! Learning to drive any car well is a challenge in and of itself.
Find a car that is in good shape so you can enjoy learning to drive it versus cursing it for not being reliable enough! So if all you can find is a nice C4 and crappy C2's... I bet you'd enjoy the reliable car more!! At the amateur driving/rallying/touring/racing level, it probably makes little difference which one you end up with! It makes more of a difference to have a car you are comfortable with so you can actually enjoy driving it, versus being scared to try to drive it harder.
04-25-2007, 11:43 AM
#18
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Contrats, Garrett! 1st place your first time out in the new ride. Not too shabby! 
Wow, this is a pretty well-balanced discussion with a lot of good input. I've raced both a C2 and C4 with the exact same suspension, tires and exhaust/intake tweeks and find them to be amazingly similar. While there is a weight difference, most of that occurs near the car's CG and low so the affect on handling is probably not as dramatic as you might imagine. Where it will be slightly more evident is in a straight line or up a hill.
Other thoughts:
> Buy the best car you can find. Mechanical issues can really put a damper on your race weekends and cost you seat time. Reliability is king!
> Don't underestimate the importance of tires ... especially in the rain. Once I was pushing my C4 pretty hard in the wet while riding on Michelin Pilot Sport Cups (and passing most cars along the way) but a RWD, front-engined beast--944 Turbo--wearing Yokohama A032's had no problem reeling me in ... in the twisties!
> You can make a C2 or C4 tend to understeer or oversteer through suspension tuning. Neither is doomed to handle in a certain manner.
> Which is faster? The one with the better driver.
In amateur racing, there is a huge difference in driver ability and those cars piloted by talented, experienced, competitive racers usually find their way to the front of the pack. Any posted results usually reflect this difference more than anything else.
The specs on these cars are so similar that I believe that, on most flat courses, you will not realize an appreciable performance difference. The two key factors driving your decision (as suggested above and by others) should be the car's condition and its competitivenss based on your racing body's rulebook.
Wow, this is a pretty well-balanced discussion with a lot of good input. I've raced both a C2 and C4 with the exact same suspension, tires and exhaust/intake tweeks and find them to be amazingly similar. While there is a weight difference, most of that occurs near the car's CG and low so the affect on handling is probably not as dramatic as you might imagine. Where it will be slightly more evident is in a straight line or up a hill.
Other thoughts:
> Buy the best car you can find. Mechanical issues can really put a damper on your race weekends and cost you seat time. Reliability is king!
> Don't underestimate the importance of tires ... especially in the rain. Once I was pushing my C4 pretty hard in the wet while riding on Michelin Pilot Sport Cups (and passing most cars along the way) but a RWD, front-engined beast--944 Turbo--wearing Yokohama A032's had no problem reeling me in ... in the twisties!
> You can make a C2 or C4 tend to understeer or oversteer through suspension tuning. Neither is doomed to handle in a certain manner.
> Which is faster? The one with the better driver.
In amateur racing, there is a huge difference in driver ability and those cars piloted by talented, experienced, competitive racers usually find their way to the front of the pack. Any posted results usually reflect this difference more than anything else.
The specs on these cars are so similar that I believe that, on most flat courses, you will not realize an appreciable performance difference. The two key factors driving your decision (as suggested above and by others) should be the car's condition and its competitivenss based on your racing body's rulebook.
Last edited by joey bagadonuts; 04-25-2007 at 12:27 PM.
04-26-2007, 09:40 AM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Wow!! Thanks Guys for all your input!
This thread has been an extremely enjoyable read and I really appreciate the information that you have provided.
At this stage my mind is not made up and I will keep you Guys posted.
Regards
This thread has been an extremely enjoyable read and I really appreciate the information that you have provided.
At this stage my mind is not made up and I will keep you Guys posted.
Regards
04-26-2007, 10:05 AM
#20
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So when is this thread going to degenerate into a "real men don't need 4WD" brawl 
However, seriously, I guess based on this there are 2 considerations. First is personal preference. The second involves reviewing the group you will be in and at which end of the group band you are in. For instance, in the racing I do I am at the wrong end of the group, with one of the lowest power to weight ratios. However, I am not allowed to drop a group. So do your research and make sure whichever car you get, you can be really competitive in your group.
However, seriously, I guess based on this there are 2 considerations. First is personal preference. The second involves reviewing the group you will be in and at which end of the group band you are in. For instance, in the racing I do I am at the wrong end of the group, with one of the lowest power to weight ratios. However, I am not allowed to drop a group. So do your research and make sure whichever car you get, you can be really competitive in your group.
05-02-2007, 09:55 AM
#21
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you looked at the rally prepared C2 on the PCV site? http://www.pcv.com.au/PorscheClubs/p...021FF8#pagetop
Obviously not as great value as my C4
, but does seem to have had all the work done on it.
David P
Obviously not as great value as my C4
, but does seem to have had all the work done on it.David P
