SNOWBIRD

I know the ethanol is playing real havoc with boats. I read that cars built prior to '95 don't have fuel lines, pumps, injectors and other components that tolerate it. Since my search in this forum didn't bring up anything after 2003, I guess I needn't worry about my car too... Sure hope so.

KirkF

I have run Ethanol in my car alot, and in my 944. It doesnt seem to cause any problems. Maybe there is some long term degradation of rubber lines, but I couldnt say for sure. I never had a failure in my 944 and I ran it for years with ethanol.

Either way it is a fact of life for alot of north america these days. Several US states have been 10% ethanol I think, and here in canada I believe two provinces (manitoba and saskatchewan) are about to pass the law making it a requirement. (There is some talk of a federal law requiring 10% countrywide)

The octane is higher on the ethanol here. 94 vs 91 for pure gasoline.

Kirk

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Snowbird:

Ethanol is, in many respects, a crappy choice for motor fuel,... Butanol would have been a FAR better choice.

That said, ethanol possesses two bad characteristics that must be considered when its blended with gasolines (as well as E85). One,...its hygroscopic, thats to say that it absorbs moisture and the other is that its corrosive to many metals and most elastomers (rubber parts). The way to deal with the former is by using fuel additives that absorb the dissolved water and the latter is dealt with by the use of Viton rubber in fuel system components that come in contact with the gasoline.

Since we have little say in what parts are used in these cars, I do recommend a maintenance schedule that calls for replacement of certain rubber fuel lines around 100K to proactively prevent a failure. Injectors do have Viton seals so those are not a problem.

DarrylH

The risk is when water in the fuel tank combines with the ethanol and gets carried through the fuel system, since the water-ethanol solution is corrosive to certain metals, and ? rubber. I think our '89+ cars were actually designed with "gasohol" in mind, with the components of the fuel system alcohol-friendly, and thus the risk is minimal. My owner's manual says it's ok to run with gasohol unless the engine doesn't run well. I see no problems running it except the lower mileage.

Edit: wow, gotta learn to type faster!

Heirsh

What about the mixture difference required for ethanol? How well our our cars dealing with this?

I recently put a tank of 10% ethanol in my vw. While I was pumping it I was thinking of how it would act in my 964.

MarkD

I have seen 2 articles on this recently, one was in Panorama the other I think was Excellence...

10% Ethanol is allegedly OK, though the stories were not model specific IIRC. Everything I have seen at the pump has been 10% here in Ca..
As stated above, the problems will be long term. I know on the various small engine driven stuff I have there have definitely been problems with rubber fuel lines and carb parts over time. I have to be very sure to drain the gas out of the carb or I have problems in a couple of years.
Here in California we don't get much choice.

Jeremy Pinsly

I recently read an article in a chemistry magazine about the use of EtOH. One of the drawbacks is that it produces water vapor, which, if trapped in the catalytic converter, will essentially reduce the effectiveness of the cat and shorten its life. I don't have any more details than that, but I wouldn't put ethanol in my Porsche that was DESIGNED to run on gasoline.

SNOWBIRD

I hate using additives to fuel on a regular basis. I now add Startron to my boats fuel, so far, no problems... How many of you have been using ethanol for a while? It became mandated this spring in NJ. It's really playing havoc on quite a few boats around here (but certainly not all).

Indycam

Scientific American November 21, 2005
With oil prices at record levels, pollution limits in place at many airports and the threat of emission-control regulations, the global aviation industry has good reason to embrace alternative fuel technology. The single-seat EMB 202 Ipanema agricultural utility aircraft from Neiva/Embraer is the first production-series model to burn ethanol produced from sugarcane. This achievement is a natural progression for Brazil because its automobiles have been running on this type of renewable alcohol fuel for more than two decades, an effort that was launched in response to the 1970s oil crisis.
Not only is ethanol a third or fourth the price of aviation gasoline and a cleaner energy source, it helps to improve the aircraft's overall performance. The new Ipanema piston engine also brings other advantages, including lower maintenance costs and a 20 percent reduction in operating costs. So far Neiva/Embraer has received more than 100 orders for the novel crop duster and has plans to install alcohol-burning engines in some of its other models. Company engineers say that conversion of existing aviation gas engines is not only feasible but cost-effective. --Steven Ashley


Brazilian crop duster flies on ethanol
Last Updated Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:47:40 EST
CBC News
SAO PAULO - A Brazilian company has unveiled the world's first commercially-produced, ethanol-burning aircraft, opening the way for more ethanol planes.
Neiva Aeronautic Industry has just delivered the first single-engine, single-seat EMB 202 Ipanema to a crop-spraying company. It has orders for another 70.
The Ipanema uses ethanol produced from sugar cane, a resource abundant in Brazil.
Ethanol fuel is less polluting than gasoline, about five times less expensive and is renewable.
Brazil has an extensive ethanol program, established 30 years ago. A third of all cars sold in the country are adapted to use both ethanol and regular gasoline.
Some 400 aircraft in Brazil fly on ethanol, but are not certified for commercial production. The EMB 202 has been approved by aviation authorities to be manufactured and used en masse.
Neiva is a subsidiary of Embraer, the world's fourth largest aircraft maker.
National aviation officials say they hope to equip all single and twin-engine planes with ethanol-burning capacity.

jdodson

See recent articles in Excellance magazine and in PCA Panorama on the subject of Ethanol use in P-cars. Very detailed, very technical and very informative.

Sorry, I'm at the office and don't have them with me. I would have to re-read them in order to accurately summarize.

KirkF

As usual Wikipedia told me more than I wanted to know about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

Sadly I live in a farm province, and that means whether it sucks or not, we will likely get mandated to use it soon.

Kirk

jimq

Thanks for the heads up on using it in boats! I have been using it in both my IO boat motors all summer and hadnt noticed any problems as of yet. Now you have me worried. Its hard to row a 26' Wellcraft back to the dock

MarkD

I've been running 10% (again, no choice here in Ca.) in my 300hp Merc OB without issues for about 5 years now.
Many friends here in Cal. have been running it in 1000hp blown IOs with no problems either.

Hildy911

Just read the Pano article. I believe it said that 17% is the threshold at which a 911 will run okay. After that it degrades rapidly. The original question in the Panorama was-"Will E85 work in a 911?". I believe the 911 in question was a later car, however, I believe it's safe to say our older cars would fair worse if anything. The answer to the question was "NO!!" Don't even try it. If it even starts, it will run badly. If not beat too hard the car will suffer no permanent affects once the gas is drained and refilled with proper fuel.

I have used 10% with no ill affects in any of my 3 911s and one outboard, not to mention various lawn implements. However, I go out of my way to get no-blend 93 octane and only get 10% ethanol in a pinch.

kgorman

I asked a similar question a bit ago: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/289171-what-fuel-should-i-be-using.html. My main question was about performance. I have to admit I am still confused. I *think* most 100+ octane race gas does NOT have ethanol. It's a bit OT, but perhaps some more info regarding ethanol.