buellrunner

Thank you for your reply - all interesting points but I respectfully disagree on a few of them

New drivers that "seem to love air cooled cars" vs. new drivers that are willing to actually put down their hard earned savings or take a loan to invest in inflated/bubbled prices around old cars are two very different ideas.

Also, for almost all new/younger drivers around the globe - the cycle cant repeat. The car they that they could not afford in the past is never an old porsche car without a radiator with high maintenance costs and far from modern crash/safety features. Maybe something newer, but even then, the landscape is changing faster than ever before and there are now so many wonderful choices for them to select from.

Also, from what I have been reading - research demonstrates that new buyers are heavily invested in modern crash test/safety design and engineering. I know its not fun to think about crashing, but its a reality when selecting which vehicle to invest hard earned money into - especially if you plan to use it at high speeds/hwy speeds around modern vehicles built to today's crash standards. I would not want to crash in to a modern vehicle at speed in an old (pre 2000's) vehicle.

Before the bubble started busting, the vehicles listed above would have been considered rare buying opportunities.

What I hear all the time now (at the track, with porsche and other brand owners/collectors usually) - there are going to be high volumes of dealers, buyers, what some would call "bagholders" that have a lot of hard earned money in these old units, and they will want that money out ASAP as the market conditions continue to change. It seems thats there are many people and businesses/dealers that bought, took variable rate loans, and/or hold more than one of these units as investment tools, and the price-drop losses can be very heavy especially when compounded by factoring in unexpected engine-out rebuilds or other issues that often arise with these units, especially when they are driven.

I do agree with you on one point though "the passion is still there for the popular spec'd cars for sure". But this goes for 911, Supra's, s2000 CR's, NSX's, Tacoma and other long running designs - There should still be collector interest in those extremely rare (less that 50 units), low mileage (under 15k) vehicles that will sit as a investment....if you find the right buyer at the right time.

Who knows what will come - lets stay healthy and safe and watch the show.

cobalt

I am not seeing any bursting or deflating of the market I follow it very closely for over 30 years. I lived through the 80's grey market and this is very different. I have no doubt we are seeing many a wake up to BaT and that some cars are worth far more than others. People lost sight of that a long time ago and some are worth 6 figures and others not close. There has been a lot of lipstick going around. I am still seeing pristine examples fetching good money privately. The market is currently at its softest since we are all so concerned about the economy and which nut case will be in office next. This is a common side effect of election years it has always been this way. I suspect you will find that the cars were bid to what they were actually worth vs many overpaying for inferior examples in the past. There was nothing special about any of those and to use them and BaT as a barometer is IMO a huge mistake.

s65e90

BAT is the exception, not the rule, people need to understand that. And I don't see these cars ever going back down to "affordable" status.

Spyder_2011

I think your view of the younger generation of buyers is flawed coming from a dad of two teenagers and a car enthusiast. My son (Gen Z) completely appreciates what the older cars have to offer and recognizes that it is impossible to find it in current and likely future generation of cars. What many desire is that analog connection with the car, to understand what it’s doing, have more control over the inputs and receive unfiltered feedback. More importantly many are now realizing that the capabilities of modern cars is far beyond what can actually be utilized on a public road safely. We went from underpowered in the 80’s to completely over the top currently. I would argue the late 80’s, 90’s and early 2000 cars might be the best driving experience available while still keeping things sane.

Your point about safety, connectivity and modern features is absolutely true when it comes to a commuter/everyday car, truthfully I and I’m sure many here desire the same when running at 80 mph in a train of cars bumper to bumper on crowded highway. But it’s the last thing I seek out if I want to head out to the nearby mountain town for some lunch and experience some great roads along the way and I know the younger generation feels the same. If you haven’t noticed there’s many other trends that Gen Z is bringing back including cassette players, record players etc which no one would have predicted years ago.

To your point about spending the hard earned dollars on these cars, let’s be completely realistic, how many Gen Z can actually afford these cars? Hell I’d say the same applies to the vast majority of the population, it’s not nearly as easy to purchase a classic vs a new car. Banks don’t lend as easily and when you factor the higher maintenance costs and difficulty in finding a nice example it removes the majority of buyers from the pool. But at some point many will have the money to purchase these cars (maybe 15 years from now) and demand will continue.

I do think the market is definitely softening and that is a reflection of the overall economy rather than cars we are discussing. All cars have taken a loss over the past 6 months, not just air cooled Porsches. Prices will come back up when the economy picks back up, it might take some time but it will happen.

jreifler

I've been completely blown away by how covetous Z, Millenial, and baby Xers are of my older P Cars. Every C&C is a string of them wanting to take pictures and know more about the cars. Consistently hear how 964 / 997 are their grails, especially from those with some motorsports background / interest.

Also not seeing a 964 bubble. Unless you define it as a steady increase in prices for quality examples over 15-20 years . . .

s65e90

I, a millennial, love wasting my money on old cars. It's a good hobby.

2000m2

Lol, guess I should weigh in as well since I'm either the end of Gen X or beginning of millennial gen. I got somewhat lucky in buying my 964 in 2016. I don't daily drive, but essentially use mine as a daily driver in using it to run errands 3 or 4 times/week and longer car club drives a couple times a year. Agree, fun hobby.

jeff33702

Apperciate the opinions. Seems based on a flawed assumption, though - that in the future, people would have a 911 as an only car.

Most of the people I know who own these cars don’t own them as investment vehicles and can afford to just keep them longer if the price dips ~ that, in itself, props up the market.

928 GT R

Interesting quote about truly collectable cars...

"You can't pay too much, you can only buy too soon"

Vegas993

So many of us that drive drive these cars today fell in love with them long before we could afford them. I think Social Media provided a platform for exposure to the masses and let's face it, the cars that get the most exposure are generally the best ones that have had a lot of money invested in them. That exposure ultimately caught the eyes of a lot of people with deep pockets. We've seen so many 964 owners come and go over the last decade, IMO it's largely because they are not true old car enthusiasts, they see a clean, dialed in 964 on IG and think that they want one and then the reality of owning an old car with all of their quirks, smells and lack of tech sets in and they realize it's more work than they are willing to invest to be cool, lol.

While the tech and performance of the modern cars is amazing and impressive, for those of us who love older cars, it's ultimately a pretty soulless experience compared to the visceral experience of driving an air-cooled 911, especially if you were exposed to them at a time when they were the pinnacle of sports car performance.

As for the current 964 market, I feel the current "correction" is a result of what I've described above combined with an election year and uncertainty in the economy,

Equating performance and drivability to selling price makes no sense, take the 356 Speedster for example.

I also agree with the comments regarding the younger generation. At C&C they are all over my car, more than anyone else by far - once again Social Media. The older guys (my age) look at it and have zero interest and would much rather look at the GT3 RS that was just purchased off the showroom floor - cool cars but if you've seen one, you've seen them all.

Spyder_2011

Adding to the point above, when I was in my 30’s I owned a mint 90 928 and while I loved it I would get frustrated when I had to bring it in for service and lose a few weeks of driving time during an already short driving season. That combined with a demanding work schedule, demanding young children etc I decided that a newer Porsche would be a better choice so I could enjoy it when I had the time. 14 years later and I have more time on my hands and I genuinely enjoy working on the cars and making them better. I have owned my Spyder for 13 years now and it remains ultra reliable and ready to go anytime but I haven’t bonded with it nearly as much as the 964’s I purchased. Working on, restoring and learning how the cars are built is part of that bonding.

There are many factors in classic car ownership and it definitely has to fit into your current life.

RapidGT

PTS Fly Yellow RSA for sale. 1 of 4 and this one used to belong to registrar of the RS America Registry for a while. Was featured in some magazine publications over the years and I’ll attach a couple of them. No price or current photos.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...ckType=listing

Sold with Mecum in 2019 for $132k with fees:
https://www.mecum.com/lots/381124/19...11-rs-america/

4 Fly Yellow RS America’s at Porsche Parade in 2005:
http://www.rsamerica.net/articles/member/4FLY_RSAs.htm

RapidGT

Ask is $200k. Here’s some of the old listings of the other 3 Fly Yellow RSA’s.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1993-porsche-911-4/

https://germancarsforsaleblog.com/fe...s-america-1-4/

https://germancarsforsaleblog.com/19...-rs-america-6/

jeff33702

Was not aware there was the ability to add any options other than the 4 RSA options.

RapidGT

I have my doubts about this being factory ordered. Unless it was a special wishes request or something. Never heard of an RSA receiving these type of options. Maybe it was dealer installed but not sure about factory. Probably was done in the same period when the aftermarket alarm was installed.

Found this video from the New York Auto Show in 1993. One of the Fly Yellow RSA’s is pictured on the stand at 3:47. Have no idea what the girl leaning against the car is doing.