Weird problems after maintenance. FIXED :)
12-02-2005, 10:15 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Solana Beach, CA
Posts: 920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Weird problems after maintenance. FIXED :)
Sorry this is lengthy but I did it for clarity of the problems.
Today I put my car back together after doing the following maintenance (all of which i have done before, for the record):
-Oil/filter change (went from M1 15w-50 to M1 0w-40)
-Valve clearance check/adjustments
-New valve cover gaskets
-Also checked all the fluids and a few other things, and finally installed my bumperette replacement lenses too. I like the result as I knew I would.
But anyway, on to the issue...
So I put the car back together, put 8-9 quarts of oil in and start it up. It starts right up no problem and runs well... K cool. At this point I'm happy.
So I let the motor get to operating temp before adding the rest of the oil, and I then add it and of course I go for a ride...
I drive it for about 15 minutes or so when I have a little bit of a clear road, and I was in 2nd gear so I went ahead and gave it full throttle for a second or two. When I gave it full throttle, however, it blew smoke like a diesel.
At this point I didn't really think much of the smoke since it just came out under full throttle, so I went home. A bit later I jumped back in the 964 and went to pick up my girlfriend... I pick her up and we're driving along about to merge onto the NJ turnpike when I give it full throttle again (so I can get a good "merge speed" as I usually do) I looked out the back as I gave it full throttle and sure enough my 964 was puffing smoke again.
I tested to see at what point the car would smoke and it's ONLY at full throttle. Not even at 95% throttle, only 100%. I thought that was weird...
My girlfriend then randomly confirmed my suspicions that the car was running a bit rough at idle. I was thinking this too, but figured that since I probably just wasn't used to the idle since I had only driven my Evo in the past week and a half. It is running a bit rough at idle though, but just barely enough to tell.
Then I got to a stoplight, sat there at the red for a minute.When the light turned green, I gave it a some decent throttle (about 75%) and it sort of fluttered in power. This was from about 2k-4k RPM. It felt like something was missing.
Actually, it almost felt like my A4 1.8T used to when one of its coil packs went bad, which makes me wonder if, even after labeling all of them, I somehow didn't put the spark plugs wires back on the distributors properly? But wouldn't it be a very noticable problem if that were to be the case?
Summary:
-It starts fine as it always has
-No smoke upon start-up (ever, actually)
-Fluttery power in low RPMs
-Dusty-looking exhaust smoke at full throttle
-Seems to run fine otherwise. Did very well on the freeway. Runs smoothly as long as you dont give it too much throttle.
Please save my butt again Rennlist!
Thnx,
Harry
Today I put my car back together after doing the following maintenance (all of which i have done before, for the record):
-Oil/filter change (went from M1 15w-50 to M1 0w-40)
-Valve clearance check/adjustments
-New valve cover gaskets
-Also checked all the fluids and a few other things, and finally installed my bumperette replacement lenses too. I like the result as I knew I would.
But anyway, on to the issue...
So I put the car back together, put 8-9 quarts of oil in and start it up. It starts right up no problem and runs well... K cool. At this point I'm happy.
So I let the motor get to operating temp before adding the rest of the oil, and I then add it and of course I go for a ride...
I drive it for about 15 minutes or so when I have a little bit of a clear road, and I was in 2nd gear so I went ahead and gave it full throttle for a second or two. When I gave it full throttle, however, it blew smoke like a diesel.
At this point I didn't really think much of the smoke since it just came out under full throttle, so I went home. A bit later I jumped back in the 964 and went to pick up my girlfriend... I pick her up and we're driving along about to merge onto the NJ turnpike when I give it full throttle again (so I can get a good "merge speed" as I usually do) I looked out the back as I gave it full throttle and sure enough my 964 was puffing smoke again.
I tested to see at what point the car would smoke and it's ONLY at full throttle. Not even at 95% throttle, only 100%. I thought that was weird...
My girlfriend then randomly confirmed my suspicions that the car was running a bit rough at idle. I was thinking this too, but figured that since I probably just wasn't used to the idle since I had only driven my Evo in the past week and a half. It is running a bit rough at idle though, but just barely enough to tell.
Then I got to a stoplight, sat there at the red for a minute.When the light turned green, I gave it a some decent throttle (about 75%) and it sort of fluttered in power. This was from about 2k-4k RPM. It felt like something was missing.
Actually, it almost felt like my A4 1.8T used to when one of its coil packs went bad, which makes me wonder if, even after labeling all of them, I somehow didn't put the spark plugs wires back on the distributors properly? But wouldn't it be a very noticable problem if that were to be the case?
Summary:
-It starts fine as it always has
-No smoke upon start-up (ever, actually)
-Fluttery power in low RPMs
-Dusty-looking exhaust smoke at full throttle
-Seems to run fine otherwise. Did very well on the freeway. Runs smoothly as long as you dont give it too much throttle.
Please save my butt again Rennlist!
Thnx,
Harry
Last edited by Euromagination; 12-05-2005 at 01:10 PM.
12-02-2005, 10:34 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Spokane, WA in the USA
Posts: 908
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wish I could help.
Sadly though you've given me nightmares as I'm planning the valve adjust in the coming weeks.
On second thought...The valve adjust, is this something you are experienced at? Did anyone check your work, so to speak? I could see (keep in mind that I'm an extreme novice myself) that poorly adjusted valves could be a cause for the poor power and smoke.
Sadly though you've given me nightmares as I'm planning the valve adjust in the coming weeks.
On second thought...The valve adjust, is this something you are experienced at? Did anyone check your work, so to speak? I could see (keep in mind that I'm an extreme novice myself) that poorly adjusted valves could be a cause for the poor power and smoke.
12-02-2005, 11:11 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Solana Beach, CA
Posts: 920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by C4Russ
I wish I could help.
Sadly though you've given me nightmares as I'm planning the valve adjust in the coming weeks.
On second thought...The valve adjust, is this something you are experienced at? Did anyone check your work, so to speak? I could see (keep in mind that I'm an extreme novice myself) that poorly adjusted valves could be a cause for the poor power and smoke.
Sadly though you've given me nightmares as I'm planning the valve adjust in the coming weeks.
On second thought...The valve adjust, is this something you are experienced at? Did anyone check your work, so to speak? I could see (keep in mind that I'm an extreme novice myself) that poorly adjusted valves could be a cause for the poor power and smoke.
I just took the car out again and got it up to operting temp, then gave it full throttle several times. It only blew smoke the first time of being at full throttle, then no more. ???
Hmm. I'd hate to have to do it all over again.
Last edited by Euromagination; 12-03-2005 at 12:02 AM. Reason: clarity
12-03-2005, 01:50 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Solana Beach, CA
Posts: 920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just got back from driving the car again...
The problems mentioned above (i.e., fluttery acceleration/power at low RPM's and cloudy exhaust at full throttle) are intermittent. One minute the car is running perfectly, then the next minute it seems a little bit "off". I don't know what to make of it, but I will continue to lose sleep at night until this is fixed.
Obviously, I need a little direction.
Anyone?
The problems mentioned above (i.e., fluttery acceleration/power at low RPM's and cloudy exhaust at full throttle) are intermittent. One minute the car is running perfectly, then the next minute it seems a little bit "off". I don't know what to make of it, but I will continue to lose sleep at night until this is fixed.
Obviously, I need a little direction.
Anyone?
12-03-2005, 02:16 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Solana Beach, CA
Posts: 920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Indycam
Overfill on the oil ?
It has fluttery power between @ 1500-4000 RPM also. Not sure if an overfill would lead to that.
12-03-2005, 03:07 PM
#7
Instructor
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA Area
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lighter weight oil would be more prone to be sucked by valve stems or rings at partial throttle. Possible plug fouling and when you give it 100% throttle it burns the oil our of the cylinders. JUst a thought. I swith to 10W40 in the winter. Have you used 0W40 before? Sounds very thin! Just my thoughts.
Trending Topics
12-03-2005, 03:44 PM
#8
Nordschleife Master
The only thing that could make smoke is oil , I think .
The oil might have gotten into the intake while filling the tank ?
I'll bet another cheap beer that the smoke goes away after a while , when all the oil in the exhaust system burns off .
Any oily stuff inside the exhaust tip ?
"It has fluttery power between @ 1500-4000 RPM also."
Extra good valve adjustment ?
The oil might have gotten into the intake while filling the tank ?
I'll bet another cheap beer that the smoke goes away after a while , when all the oil in the exhaust system burns off .
Any oily stuff inside the exhaust tip ?
"It has fluttery power between @ 1500-4000 RPM also."
Extra good valve adjustment ?
12-03-2005, 05:23 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Solana Beach, CA
Posts: 920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Indycam
The only thing that could make smoke is oil , I think .
The oil might have gotten into the intake while filling the tank ?
I'll bet another cheap beer that the smoke goes away after a while , when all the oil in the exhaust system burns off .
Any oily stuff inside the exhaust tip ?
"It has fluttery power between @ 1500-4000 RPM also."
Extra good valve adjustment ?
The oil might have gotten into the intake while filling the tank ?
I'll bet another cheap beer that the smoke goes away after a while , when all the oil in the exhaust system burns off .
Any oily stuff inside the exhaust tip ?
"It has fluttery power between @ 1500-4000 RPM also."
Extra good valve adjustment ?
If my adjustments are off, I don't understand how. I used the feeler gauge properly and made sure it just barely dragged on its way out as it is supposed to. I made sure to do this each time so if that's the problem, I honestly don't know what I'm going to do since I think I did it properly. I'd hate to have to take it in to the shop, but then again I wouldn't want to go through all of this again just to have the same result.
What a pain in the *** this is going to be.
Could it be possible that I may have mixed up two of the spark plug wires on just ONE of the distributor caps? I would think that this would make only one of the two required spark plugs to fire properly in the "switched" cylinders--possibly leading to my power loss problem?
Last edited by Euromagination; 12-03-2005 at 06:00 PM.
12-04-2005, 10:06 AM
#11
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by harris
my feeling is that your valve adjustment generates the prob, with the help of thinner oil!!!
why 0-40 w on an old 964? and wintr?
why 0-40 w on an old 964? and wintr?
First of all, you are smoking when fully warmed up (at least I hope so if you are using full power). The viscosity of the hot oil is therefore what will cause cause smoking under power. For a multi-viscosity oil, the first number is the cold flow characteristic. The second number describes the hot flow characteristics. In other words, you are running a very thick oil. Thick oil might help a worn out engine sound quieter. The correct viscosity oil will lubricate better, help you run cooler, let you get more power to the flywheel (lower oil pump and drag losses), and get better fuel economy. I have been flamed for saying this, but thicker than recommended oil has no benefit unless your engine is shot anyway. 40 weight is about as heavy as I would go. I have run M1 10W-30 since I got mine, and I also run it in my 200,000 mile Mercedes beater. I have no problems with smoke, oil consumption, or leaks. If the smoking is a spill, it should stop after the first long trip, and will do no harm in the meantime (other that offend those of us that are environmentally consious). I am, but you get a free pass for a temproary Porsche problem. If it does not clear up, you are due for some engine work. Switching from 40 weight back to 50 weight will not change that.
Your procedure for setting the valve lash is the correct one. Are you sure you had the crank in the correct position for each adjustment? Did any valve need a lot of adjustment? The "flutter power" could be misfires from an intake valve starting to burn. I don't know why the symptom would show up after an adjustment, but possibly it is related the the full throttle operations to clear the oil smoke.
Cross-wired spark plugs will also generate misfires and backfires. If you are having the slightest doubt about cross-wiring your plugs, why not double (triple) check? On mine, the cylinder numbers were marked on each wire, and it is easy to verify. I am not sure about the 964 DME, but misfires will generate fault codes and cause the check engine light to come on in most newer cars. See if you can locate a Hammer and read the fault codes. See my thread on a joint purchase of a hammer (shameless plug). Cost should be $300 per person, and if somebody would order the thing, this could happen quickly.
The misfires and the oil smoke could be related. If your intake somehow took a slug of oil, the plugs could be fouled and that is causing the misfires. The oil could have contaminated your air flow door. Checking the signal with the VOM is not too difficult, and I believe the Hammer reads it as well.
Don't give up on DIY. Shops have problems too, and many that I have dealt with can't troubleshoot. They replace expensive parts until the problem goes away. If this happened after a shop visit, you would be paying and paying and paying.... Systematically troubleshoot and you will find the problem.
12-04-2005, 11:06 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Solana Beach, CA
Posts: 920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thnx to everyone taking the time to reply as I stress out a little bit over here.
So here's an update...
I took the car out for a 50 mile drive last night and it never smoked under full throttle so I'm assuming that problem has passed.
It's also running better than it was the last time I drove it. Seems to be getting progressively better each time I drive it if that makes any sense. (You can even tell it's gotten better by reading my post-history in this thread.)
Idle still seems a bit rough, but just barely. Right now it seems to be running @ 95%. If it doesn't seem 100% by the time next weekend comes around, I'll do everything all over again.
Keeping my fingers crossed. Never a dull moment around my house with my cars, I swear. And people wonder why I don't have children yet.
So here's an update...
I took the car out for a 50 mile drive last night and it never smoked under full throttle so I'm assuming that problem has passed.
It's also running better than it was the last time I drove it. Seems to be getting progressively better each time I drive it if that makes any sense. (You can even tell it's gotten better by reading my post-history in this thread.)
Idle still seems a bit rough, but just barely. Right now it seems to be running @ 95%. If it doesn't seem 100% by the time next weekend comes around, I'll do everything all over again.
Keeping my fingers crossed. Never a dull moment around my house with my cars, I swear. And people wonder why I don't have children yet.
12-04-2005, 12:42 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Atnens Greece
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by springer3
I don't agree with any of this comment.
First of all, you are smoking when fully warmed up (at least I hope so if you are using full power). The viscosity of the hot oil is therefore what will cause cause smoking under power. For a multi-viscosity oil, the first number is the cold flow characteristic. The second number describes the hot flow characteristics. In other words, you are running a very thick oil.
correct but 50 is thicker than 40.that's why i said why 0-40 instead of 15-50?
Thick oil might help a worn out engine sound quieter. The correct viscosity oil will lubricate better, help you run cooler, let you get more power to the flywheel (lower oil pump and drag losses), and get better fuel economy. I have been flamed for saying this, but thicker than recommended oil has no benefit unless your engine is shot anyway.
you shouldn't be flammed...it is correct.
40 weight is about as heavy as I would go. I have run M1 10W-30 since I got mine, and I also run it in my 200,000 mile Mercedes beater.
flat engines behave in a very different way than V or straight....(no comparison...sorry)...mileage is adifferent issue here
I have no problems with smoke, oil consumption, or leaks. If the smoking is a spill, it should stop after the first long trip, and will do no harm in the meantime (other that offend those of us that are environmentally consious). I am, but you get a free pass for a temproary Porsche problem. If it does not clear up, you are due for some engine work. Switching from 40 weight back to 50 weight will not change that.
Your procedure for setting the valve lash is the correct one. Are you sure you had the crank in the correct position for each adjustment? Did any valve need a lot of adjustment? The "flutter power" could be misfires from an intake valve starting to burn. I don't know why the symptom would show up after an adjustment, but possibly it is related the the full throttle operations to clear the oil smoke.
Cross-wired spark plugs will also generate misfires and backfires. If you are having the slightest doubt about cross-wiring your plugs, why not double (triple) check? On mine, the cylinder numbers were marked on each wire, and it is easy to verify. I am not sure about the 964 DME, but misfires will generate fault codes and cause the check engine light to come on in most newer cars. See if you can locate a Hammer and read the fault codes. See my thread on a joint purchase of a hammer (shameless plug). Cost should be $300 per person, and if somebody would order the thing, this could happen quickly.
The misfires and the oil smoke could be related. If your intake somehow took a slug of oil, the plugs could be fouled and that is causing the misfires. The oil could have contaminated your air flow door. Checking the signal with the VOM is not too difficult, and I believe the Hammer reads it as well.
Don't give up on DIY. Shops have problems too, and many that I have dealt with can't troubleshoot. They replace expensive parts until the problem goes away. If this happened after a shop visit, you would be paying and paying and paying.... Systematically troubleshoot and you will find the problem.
First of all, you are smoking when fully warmed up (at least I hope so if you are using full power). The viscosity of the hot oil is therefore what will cause cause smoking under power. For a multi-viscosity oil, the first number is the cold flow characteristic. The second number describes the hot flow characteristics. In other words, you are running a very thick oil.
correct but 50 is thicker than 40.that's why i said why 0-40 instead of 15-50?
Thick oil might help a worn out engine sound quieter. The correct viscosity oil will lubricate better, help you run cooler, let you get more power to the flywheel (lower oil pump and drag losses), and get better fuel economy. I have been flamed for saying this, but thicker than recommended oil has no benefit unless your engine is shot anyway.
you shouldn't be flammed...it is correct.
40 weight is about as heavy as I would go. I have run M1 10W-30 since I got mine, and I also run it in my 200,000 mile Mercedes beater.
flat engines behave in a very different way than V or straight....(no comparison...sorry)...mileage is adifferent issue here
I have no problems with smoke, oil consumption, or leaks. If the smoking is a spill, it should stop after the first long trip, and will do no harm in the meantime (other that offend those of us that are environmentally consious). I am, but you get a free pass for a temproary Porsche problem. If it does not clear up, you are due for some engine work. Switching from 40 weight back to 50 weight will not change that.
Your procedure for setting the valve lash is the correct one. Are you sure you had the crank in the correct position for each adjustment? Did any valve need a lot of adjustment? The "flutter power" could be misfires from an intake valve starting to burn. I don't know why the symptom would show up after an adjustment, but possibly it is related the the full throttle operations to clear the oil smoke.
Cross-wired spark plugs will also generate misfires and backfires. If you are having the slightest doubt about cross-wiring your plugs, why not double (triple) check? On mine, the cylinder numbers were marked on each wire, and it is easy to verify. I am not sure about the 964 DME, but misfires will generate fault codes and cause the check engine light to come on in most newer cars. See if you can locate a Hammer and read the fault codes. See my thread on a joint purchase of a hammer (shameless plug). Cost should be $300 per person, and if somebody would order the thing, this could happen quickly.
The misfires and the oil smoke could be related. If your intake somehow took a slug of oil, the plugs could be fouled and that is causing the misfires. The oil could have contaminated your air flow door. Checking the signal with the VOM is not too difficult, and I believe the Hammer reads it as well.
Don't give up on DIY. Shops have problems too, and many that I have dealt with can't troubleshoot. They replace expensive parts until the problem goes away. If this happened after a shop visit, you would be paying and paying and paying.... Systematically troubleshoot and you will find the problem.
i have a feeling that we are saying the same thing....(or in other case i misunderstood what you wrote.....
if i did i am really sorry
12-04-2005, 01:37 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Hiya Euromagination
"Extra good as in... so good that I have to do it again?"
I am so sorry I miss read what you wrote .
I read fluttery as flurry .
I thought your car was running better with some smoke sometimes .
I was saying that the extra power was from a real good valve adjustment .
"I took the car out for a 50 mile drive last night and it never smoked under full throttle so I'm assuming that problem has passed"
I guess the oil that might have gotten into the intake system has allmost all been cleared away .
The less than perfect running could just be from some oil in the intake .
Sorry again . I'll try to never do that again .
The " overfill " , my guess is that you put oil into the tank faster than the oil could move out of the tank . That the oil level in the tank went way high and spilled over into the intake .
"Extra good as in... so good that I have to do it again?"
I am so sorry I miss read what you wrote .
I read fluttery as flurry .
I thought your car was running better with some smoke sometimes .
I was saying that the extra power was from a real good valve adjustment .
"I took the car out for a 50 mile drive last night and it never smoked under full throttle so I'm assuming that problem has passed"
I guess the oil that might have gotten into the intake system has allmost all been cleared away .
The less than perfect running could just be from some oil in the intake .
Sorry again . I'll try to never do that again .
The " overfill " , my guess is that you put oil into the tank faster than the oil could move out of the tank . That the oil level in the tank went way high and spilled over into the intake .
Last edited by Indycam; 12-04-2005 at 02:10 PM.
12-05-2005, 02:59 AM
#15
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Euromagination
Idle still seems a bit rough, but just barely. Right now it seems to be running @ 95%. If it doesn't seem 100% by the time next weekend comes around, I'll do everything all over again.
