964 C2 - Clutch Not fully disengaging when warm/hot
10-11-2005, 06:51 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
Greg,
I have the same problem with my 1989 C4
I have changed the Master Cylinder, Slave Cylinder, Flexible Hose, and bled it and rebled it profusely with no improvement to the problem. I've checked the pedals and found nothing wrong there.
I am now dropping the engine to pull the transmission off and have a look.
Kirk
I have the same problem with my 1989 C4
I have changed the Master Cylinder, Slave Cylinder, Flexible Hose, and bled it and rebled it profusely with no improvement to the problem. I've checked the pedals and found nothing wrong there.
I am now dropping the engine to pull the transmission off and have a look.
Kirk
10-12-2005, 09:22 AM
#18
Racer
Thread Starter
Hi Kirk
That's interesting, I'm definately heading down the same path and stubbornly refusing to think there might be a problem with the clutch itself! Haven't go round to doing the master yet. Please keep us all up to date on your findings.
Cheers
Greg
That's interesting, I'm definately heading down the same path and stubbornly refusing to think there might be a problem with the clutch itself! Haven't go round to doing the master yet. Please keep us all up to date on your findings.
Cheers
Greg
10-12-2005, 09:56 AM
#19
Professor of Pending Projects
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If you end up doing a clutch job make sure you get the updated parts. Seems there were a few parts revision along the way for some of the clutch components. I need to look up the old threads on this since I can't remember if it was just the fork or also the needle bearings, or what else it was...
10-12-2005, 12:58 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
I am planning on pulling the transmission off on saturday.
I think that the '89 C4 had a different flywheel and possibly other clutch components from the later years. (except maybe the rs?)
Do any of the experts out there know what the proper updated parts numbers are for an '89 C4
(Flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing, clutch lever, etc)??
Has anyone sourced these parts lately and can recommend a good place to buy them from?
When I bought this car the P.O. said it had a lightened flywheel. I have never been clear as to whether he meant that the '89 had the lighter flywheel or whether he had changed the setup.
I intend on changing it back to original porsche parts if any of them are changed. (In particular the flywheel if it isnt stock.)
Kirk
I think that the '89 C4 had a different flywheel and possibly other clutch components from the later years. (except maybe the rs?)
Do any of the experts out there know what the proper updated parts numbers are for an '89 C4
(Flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing, clutch lever, etc)??
Has anyone sourced these parts lately and can recommend a good place to buy them from?
When I bought this car the P.O. said it had a lightened flywheel. I have never been clear as to whether he meant that the '89 had the lighter flywheel or whether he had changed the setup.
I intend on changing it back to original porsche parts if any of them are changed. (In particular the flywheel if it isnt stock.)
Kirk
10-15-2005, 01:10 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Well its friday and I decided to remove the transmission to find out exactly what is going on in there:
Here is some pictures (if i uploaded them right?)
Showing the seperation of engine and tranny. The bellhousing is very full of clutch residue and what looks like some contamination due to oil.
Kirk
Here is some pictures (if i uploaded them right?)
Showing the seperation of engine and tranny. The bellhousing is very full of clutch residue and what looks like some contamination due to oil.
Kirk
10-15-2005, 01:22 AM
#24
Professor of Pending Projects
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Dude! you wasted no time in dropping that baby! Cool! Time for cleaning and tackling the know problems areas for leaks that are a pain to get to with the engine in place.
10-15-2005, 01:40 AM
#25
Three Wheelin'
The next step was to remove the flywheel. As some of you may know I have suffered from alot of idle problems, etc which I beleive were due to a lightened flywheel installed by a previous owner. I am not sure why he would change out the flywheel on an '89 C4. They already had a much lighter flywheel than the other year 964s (except the rs, etc)
To find out what was done (and also as per this thread try and figure out why I have to push my foot through the floor boards to get the clutch to disengage) is the reason I have dropped the motor out. (well that and to fix all these oil leaks!)
In the next pic you will see my flywheel lock (please dont flame me, it works just fine)
Then the back of the engine behind the flywheel, and the clutch components.
You can see some pooled oil at the bottom of the engine casing to transmission mount point. I couldnt tell whether this oil was from the rear main seal, a leak between the engine case halves, or leaking from above the transmission between the transmission/engine seam.
Its not visible in the pics but there is a visible tear in the rear main seal where it looks like it may have been installed improperly.
The flywheel weighs in at 12lbs. So the P.O. did indeed change it out from the factory setup. (19 lbs) I couldnt see any obvious part number on the flywheel.
My Conclusions:
-------------------
1. My unstable idle, particularly with the a/c etc on is due to a lightened flywheel setup which this car was never designed for. The aftermarket chip installed does not solve the problem.
2. During installation of this setup they probably changed the rear main seal and nicked it. From 'whatever source' there seems to be oil contamination getting on the clutch.
3. The poor clutch pedal action was likely due to the unknown mish/mash of parts put in there for this lightened flywheel setup. It may have been acceptable to drive when first installed, howver as the clutch has worn it has become unuseable.
My solution will be to replace clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, clutch lever, throwout bearing and lever pin with stock porsche parts or their equivalents with the right parts numbers for my year car.
I would appreciate any other insites or ideas anyone may have based on these pictures. I would be happy to take any other pics if it would help.
Kirk.
To find out what was done (and also as per this thread try and figure out why I have to push my foot through the floor boards to get the clutch to disengage) is the reason I have dropped the motor out. (well that and to fix all these oil leaks!)
In the next pic you will see my flywheel lock (please dont flame me, it works just fine)
Then the back of the engine behind the flywheel, and the clutch components.
You can see some pooled oil at the bottom of the engine casing to transmission mount point. I couldnt tell whether this oil was from the rear main seal, a leak between the engine case halves, or leaking from above the transmission between the transmission/engine seam.
Its not visible in the pics but there is a visible tear in the rear main seal where it looks like it may have been installed improperly.
The flywheel weighs in at 12lbs. So the P.O. did indeed change it out from the factory setup. (19 lbs) I couldnt see any obvious part number on the flywheel.
My Conclusions:
-------------------
1. My unstable idle, particularly with the a/c etc on is due to a lightened flywheel setup which this car was never designed for. The aftermarket chip installed does not solve the problem.
2. During installation of this setup they probably changed the rear main seal and nicked it. From 'whatever source' there seems to be oil contamination getting on the clutch.
3. The poor clutch pedal action was likely due to the unknown mish/mash of parts put in there for this lightened flywheel setup. It may have been acceptable to drive when first installed, howver as the clutch has worn it has become unuseable.
My solution will be to replace clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, clutch lever, throwout bearing and lever pin with stock porsche parts or their equivalents with the right parts numbers for my year car.
I would appreciate any other insites or ideas anyone may have based on these pictures. I would be happy to take any other pics if it would help.
Kirk.
10-15-2005, 01:47 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
"Did your flywheel seal go on you?
You need to get yourself some gloves!!!
"
I agree! Funny thing is there was lots in a drawer about 4 feet from me, but I got too curious about what I was going to find in there and just dove in. Oh well!
You need to get yourself some gloves!!!
"
I agree! Funny thing is there was lots in a drawer about 4 feet from me, but I got too curious about what I was going to find in there and just dove in. Oh well!
10-15-2005, 02:22 AM
#27
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Nice work!!! Looks like a new rear seal will help a lot, and so will a proper flywheel/clutch.
Good job and thanks for the pictures - it's fun to see this stuff, even when it's as filthy as yours!!!!
Good job and thanks for the pictures - it's fun to see this stuff, even when it's as filthy as yours!!!!
10-16-2005, 02:45 AM
#29
Three Wheelin'
While I don't want to divert too far from the original subject of this thread, I think it is relevant because I have the same symptoms and I have already been down the path of replacing the slave cylinder, master cylinder, flexible line, bleeding etc.
While driving my car I noticed no symptons in the clutch of oil getting on it. It never slipped, but it was quite heavy at the pedal. And as I mentioned you could push the clutch pedal through the floor trying to disengage it fully.
The problem got worse as the engine got hotter.
My clutch lever has a part number of 950.116.712.3R, which PET does not show as the correct number.
I am not sure if PET was updated with a new lever after my cars build date, or whether this lever was added as part of the lightened flywheel install.
The throwout bearing, clutch and pressure plate are all manufactured by sachs.
The flywheel has no markings on it. I dont know the manufacturer or model. All I can say for sure is that is is 12lbs in weight. For my car it should be a single mass flywheel weighing 19 lbs. (1989 C4)
I wonder where the best prices for the replacement parts would be?
Kirk
p.s. Of all the pics posted on renlist, my motor is the dirtiest, most oil covered mess ever! Its kinda embarassing!
(Next I will be opening up the engine to fix my cylinder oil leaks.)
p.p.s. Here is the trans after 4 cans of gunk degreaser & two hours of pressure washing. Who would have thought it was silver?
While driving my car I noticed no symptons in the clutch of oil getting on it. It never slipped, but it was quite heavy at the pedal. And as I mentioned you could push the clutch pedal through the floor trying to disengage it fully.
The problem got worse as the engine got hotter.
My clutch lever has a part number of 950.116.712.3R, which PET does not show as the correct number.
I am not sure if PET was updated with a new lever after my cars build date, or whether this lever was added as part of the lightened flywheel install.
The throwout bearing, clutch and pressure plate are all manufactured by sachs.
The flywheel has no markings on it. I dont know the manufacturer or model. All I can say for sure is that is is 12lbs in weight. For my car it should be a single mass flywheel weighing 19 lbs. (1989 C4)
I wonder where the best prices for the replacement parts would be?
Kirk
p.s. Of all the pics posted on renlist, my motor is the dirtiest, most oil covered mess ever! Its kinda embarassing!
(Next I will be opening up the engine to fix my cylinder oil leaks.)
p.p.s. Here is the trans after 4 cans of gunk degreaser & two hours of pressure washing. Who would have thought it was silver?
Last edited by KirkF; 10-16-2005 at 03:46 AM.
10-18-2005, 01:52 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
I looked through my copy of PET and these are the parts numbers I came up with for everything involving the clutch:
1989 Porsche 964 Carerra 4 Clutch Parts
964 102 239 00 SM flywheel 1
931 102 111 00 flywheel ball bearing 1
930 102 260 00 flywheel bolt 9
950 116 023 03 pressure plate 1
950 116 012 52 carrier plate 1
950 116 143 01 starter ring 1
N 044 714 1 M8 * 80 9
950 116 086 5 clutch fork 1
950 116 715 01 clutch fork bush 2
950 116 080 04 release bearing 1
999 201 339 00 operating shaft bush 1
950 116 725 00 operating shaft cover 1
999 113 418 40 operating shaft gasket 2
950 116 710 04 operating shaft 1
999 201 365 00 operating shaft bush 1
950 116 813 06 guide tube 1
Except for the operating shaft, guide tube and clutch fork I think I will have to buy everything on this list. $$$$$
Anybody know who has the best prices out there?
Does anyone know of any good sources for parts in Canada? Its not a big deal ordering from the US, especially since their dollar has dropped so drastically, but I hate going through the shipping hassles.
Kirk
1989 Porsche 964 Carerra 4 Clutch Parts
964 102 239 00 SM flywheel 1
931 102 111 00 flywheel ball bearing 1
930 102 260 00 flywheel bolt 9
950 116 023 03 pressure plate 1
950 116 012 52 carrier plate 1
950 116 143 01 starter ring 1
N 044 714 1 M8 * 80 9
950 116 086 5 clutch fork 1
950 116 715 01 clutch fork bush 2
950 116 080 04 release bearing 1
999 201 339 00 operating shaft bush 1
950 116 725 00 operating shaft cover 1
999 113 418 40 operating shaft gasket 2
950 116 710 04 operating shaft 1
999 201 365 00 operating shaft bush 1
950 116 813 06 guide tube 1
Except for the operating shaft, guide tube and clutch fork I think I will have to buy everything on this list. $$$$$
Anybody know who has the best prices out there?
Does anyone know of any good sources for parts in Canada? Its not a big deal ordering from the US, especially since their dollar has dropped so drastically, but I hate going through the shipping hassles.
Kirk