I understand that on dry roads and on track a 964 C2 is quicker A to B than a 964 C4.

But is this true for 993 and 996 series?

Piers
1990 C4 Coupe
54K Miles

 

In all cases this is largely down to the nut behind the wheel.

 

C2 vs C4 - this is sure to start a war <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> .

A bit like tip vs manual!

I don't think most of us are remotely capable of eeking out the last 5-10% of what our cars have to offer anyway. They're all pretty fast cars that handle great, but if anyone wants an argument, I will plump for the C2 5-speed (only because the gear ratios in the 5-speed are taller and more closely spaced!!!)

However, I wouldn't swap my tip for a clutch eating, flywheel cracking manual for the tiny difference in performance.

Right, start shooting. <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

 

You have to remember that driver-appeal is about much more than just speed.
There are lots of cars that can cover the ground more quickly than my C2, or any 964, but I find that the C2 is just a much more satisfying drive than a C4. Ditto for manual versus tip.

The C2 chassis is more adjustable/responsive/rewarding. Ultimately, the C4 resorts to understeer, where the C2 continues to give its driver options.

This situation is similar to when people ask if a Boxster S will outperform/handle a 964. My view is that it doesn't matter, the 964 C2 remains the more entertaining and involving drive.

 

JB

That's the kind of response I like. Recently on the Boxter forum I was reading a lot of 'well if my Boxter had a 996 engine it could outrun a 996' and that sort of thing. Surely it doesn't matter - it is all down to personal preference.

Anyway, for the price of a Boxter S I could have purchased my car and applied a full RUF Turbo conversion with around 450hp and still come out with change. Needless to say, I tried to avoid injecting that little gem into the argument....

 

Look guys i was'nt trying to start a war (promise!)but nobody has answered my question!

1) I understand that on dry roads and on track a 964 C2 is quicker A to B than a 964 C4. True?

2) But is this true for 993 and 996 series?

For what it's worth if I was buying again I would buy a C2! I'm so tentative in the wet that C2, C4 or 'C with tank caterpillars' I'd still get overtaken by Ford Fiestas!

Best regards
Piers
1990 C4

 

Hi,
I would have said it was answered by the "depends on the driver" comments?

I don't think I would be quicker in a C2 - simply because I know I'm not quick anyway and the difference between a C4 that understeers a bit and a C2 that doesn't would be lost on me. Of course, I'd still be quicker than a tip - the performance difference is so big that even if my clutch and flywheel self destructed, I'd have time to rebuild them at the side of the road before the tip caught up.....

Anyway, a racer would probably be quicker in the C2 than the C4 but for most of us I'm not convinced there would be a big difference. As for 993 / 996 - hard to answer if you haven't driven one.

Dave
90 C4

 

John Miles site has an Autocar & Motor comparo with this to say

[quote] The Carrera 4 is, in some ways, a better car than the Carrera 2. On wet or slippery roads, the advantages are as clear cut as you might imagine: still better traction out of bends; more progressive and consistent steering responses when the road demands quick bursts of power; marginally higher levels of overall grip and a subliminal impression of enhanced stability and security as alien to ingrained 911 sensibilities as convenient switchgear.

And that's on merely wet roads. Drop the temperature below zero and the two cars become separate propositions. It's all much as you'd expect. The more interesting question, however, is what price all-weather ability?

It's a matter we went some way towards resolving in a previous issue when the two cars met head-to-head in Germany. On dry roads, the Carrera 4 driver feels a little more detached from the action than his C2 counter-part. Turn-in is slightly tardier, initial understeer stronger. In broad terms, the all-drive Porsche gives the impression of being a touch less agile - a sabre with a blunted edge.

The differences are easier to understand when you compare the two cars' weights: 1380kg for the C2, 1460kg for the C4 - a 5.7 per cent increase. Porsche claims that the C4's extra weight - and the power dissipation involved with driving all four wheels - is insignificant up to 60mph. The implication is that it is significant everywhere else and, save for top speed where the C2 is just 2mph faster at 168mph, this is precisely the case.

In fact, the C2 is a bare tenth quicker to 60mph than the C4 which returns 5.2 secs. Thereafter, the rear-drive Carrera gradually but inexorably pulls away to reach 100mph in 12.7secs (14.0 secs for C4.) and 130mph in a stunning 23.7 secs (27.5 secs). Remove the advantage afforded by the C4's superior traction off the line, however, and the Carrera 2 emerges as a clearly harder sprinter in the UK-legal band. Its 4.6 secs through the gears 30-70mph time borders on the sensational, not only trouncing the C4's 5.l secs but shading the Lotus Esprit Turbo SE's 4.7secs. The advantage lies with the Carrera 2 in 4th and 5th gear flexibility, too. Just compare the figures in the comparison table.

<hr></blockquote>

Personally I'm simply not that good a driver to be able to analyze and communicate the differences.

So I'm with JB and Christer on this, it is about more than speed. That said (and having agreed with JB on the way to think about this)I'd take my C4's wet weather ability and extra weight over the front any day over a C2.

And before anyone flames me: the great thing is that because this is a personal thing I'm correct when I speak for me just as JB is right when he speaks for which one he prefers. So there!

 

[quote]Originally posted by Roygarth:
<strong>but nobody has answered my question!

1) I understand that on dry roads and on track a 964 C2 is quicker A to B than a 964 C4. True?

2) But is this true for 993 and 996 series?</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you check in the back of any GT Purely Porsche magazine, the 0-60 times are listed for all models. If memory serves, the 993 C4 is stated to be faster than the C2.

 

Piers,

If I remember rightly from the launch tests of the 993, the situation was generally considered to be the reverse of the 964.
Because of the smaller weight difference (in the 993s) between 2 and 4 and the reduced tendency to understeer of the latter, combined with its greater grip over the 2... the 4 was considered to have the edge.

On the 996, I really don't know.

 

Okay, stated 0-62 times for MYs 99-01 for the C2 is 5.4 and C4 is 5.2. With the new engine for MY 02, stated times are 5.0 for both.

I just drove home in the rain and felt extremely safe in my C4. I passed a 996 C2 along the way who was taking it very easy. True story.

The C4 at an autocross, however, is not as happy a tale. Its biggest handicap is the locked rear differential, i.e. no slip! I can only free the wheels by trailbraking through those tight turns, so the effort required to toss the car is a little more involved.

At the track tomorrow, it will all even out ... except if the rain continues.

 

This is a bit like buying Lance Armstrong's Bicycle and then wondering why you don't win the Tour de France.

The weakest part of any car - as already said - is the nut behind the wheel. There are guys at our slaloms who will never win no matter what car you put them in and there are guys who compete despite their car being less effective than a modified 964RS.

Give the details of the drivers and the competitive conditions (allowing for the road traffic) and we'll answer your question. Also let us know if we should have the stability management on or off - this really affects slalom times (on screws you up big time !!!).

I personally believe C4 are the most fun but the others say that this is because I learned to drive fast in Front wheel drive cars.

 

On a track driving at the limit, all C2s should be quicker than their C4 counterparts if all other things are equal (brakes, tires, the nut behind the wheel, etc). C2s have less weight and less parasitic losses. This effect is slightly more pronounced in 964s compared with 993s/996s as the viscous coupling of the 993/996 has a slightly less weight penality.

On a dry road I'd say its a wash because unless you're at the absolute limit, you won't notice the extra weight. The extra confidence provided by C4's could in fact give them an edge over a C2 to a typical driver.

In damp/wet conditions, the C4s rule.

One thing about 0-60 times is how much they vary. The same car can have large variations from test to test. Conditions matter a lot. However there is a pattern that C4s seem to have a slight edge because of traction.

IMO the 60-100 sprint through the gears is much more interesting as it eliminates the variability of the launch, clutch conditions, etc. Here the C2 has a clear advantage. 964 and 993 C2s do it in the low 7s. C4s and Cabs do it in the high 7s. Plus I think 60-100 time represents a more "real-world" test than the 0-60 times.

Karl.

 

I would certainly have to say that a driver with BIG B____ in a C4 could come out with quicker lap times than a C2...but the driver would have to be capable of utilizing the C4s all wheel drive!!

Most are not ready to "go there".

Of course, a 964 C2 is faster in acceleration because of less weight...but as mentioned, the 993s and above don't have the drastic weight penalty.

I've driven a C4, they do feel heavier, quite a bit. But to say that they have more understeer is ludicrous!! ...it's only because the connection between the seat and the steering wheel doesn't want to/isn't ready to utilize the TRUE intention of that AWD.

...and in most cases, rightfully so. I would feel more secure in the snow/rain in a C4...BUT, knowing me, I would probably figure out how to have "fun" with the AWD - and that's certainly where I would run into trouble.

If I had a C4 and was experiencing an understeer situation - DOWN goes the gas pedal once you point the wheels where you REALLY want to go!

...I've been there, it works...although it was in a '02 TT.