Drew_K

I'm taking my C2 in next week for its 60K mile service. The A/C has been running pretty poorly, so I asked my mechanic about it. He had a couple of interesting bits of information to pass along.

1. R12 is about $64 per pound; R134 is about $16 per pound. He said they could convert my 92 C2 to R134 for about $300. I was under the impression that the conversion was much more than this, so I wanted to pass that along in case anyone else is contemplating it.

2. According to my mechanic, a 911's A/C system typically loses about 1/4 of its freon charge every year, so it really needs to be checked anually. He said some hold the charge fine but most don't. Mine hasn't been recharged in 3 years, which might explain why I've been sweating my ___ off every day when I drive home.

Has anyone been unhappy with a conversion to R134? I know it doesn't cool quite as well as R12, but it's supposed to be pretty close.

Bill Gregory

Drew,

There was a Porsche service bulletin on converting to R134a in the late 80's?, perhaps someone can provide the specific reference.

When I looked into the conversion on my 81SC, it was strongly suggested I change to barrier hoses that wouldn't leak freon like the stock hoses. And this and that would need upgrading for an efficient system. Price was around $1000.

Wachuko

I just reply to another post with similar information.

I was told also that these cars require getting the refrigerant (R12-Freon) check and refilled every two years. Sure enough, I had to take the car yesterday because there was no cold air coming out. They refilled the system and everything is back to normal. Doing the math... it is costing me around US$10.00 a month to run my A/C in the 964 That is roughly the cost of a coca cola a day… you have to love the way we justify stuff… <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

JW in Texas

Drew,
I run Freeze 12 in my '90 & '91. It cools much better than R134 does in a system not originally designed for R134 & almost as good as R12 did. About $ 9.00 a can. It takes 2.5 to 3 to do a 964.
Jay

go to:

<a href="http://autorefrigerants.com/freeze12-faq.htm" target="_blank">http://autorefrigerants.com/freeze12-faq.htm</a>

DaveS

I also got advice to use the Freeze 12. I am out of my depth here, but I as told that the 134 runs at a higher pressure and can be the cause of blown seals. This may have happened to my car as the PO's records show a conversion to 134 but a continual problem with bad compressors, even after full replacement.

JW in Texas

Dave,
Yeah R134 does run at higher pressures. Really is sub-par in a system designed for R12. The R12 systems don't have the necessary capacity to cool well with R134. (of course I am in Texas )I have been through the A/C stuff with a '77 turbo carrera (not enough capacity no matter what you do), '86 carrera, 96 carrera, 90 C2 & 91 C4. When it's 100+, it gets real tough to get the sytems to recover after sitting in the heat. The 964 & 993 systems do surprisingly well with the capacity Porsche added to the vent system starting in '86. Give the Freeze 12 a shot. I think you will be pleased.

Adrian

Here in Europe we have no choice R12 is totally banned. The conversion to R134A requires the replacement of the receiver dryer a few gaskets and the refrigerant oil as well obviously as the refrigerant. There is a Technical Service Bulletin on how to do this. Porsche only permit for warranty purposes (not a problem now of course) the use of R12 (if available) up to 1993 models and R134A 1993 models and after. Drop Ins as they are called are not approved.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

Climate Control System-Refrigerant 134a Use

All

10/97

8703

Binder - Service Technical Bulletins

Climate Control System Refrigerant 134a Use

Vehicle Type: All

Model Year: Up to 1992

Concern:
Use of refrigerant substitutes. (sometimes referred to as "drop-in's")

Information:
In the interest of protecting the ozone layer, the manufacturing of refrigerant type R12 has not been permitted since January 1, 1996. As a replacement for refrigerant R12, most manufacturers, including Porsche, have required the use of refrigerant type R134a. This applies to new vehicles (as of 1993), as well as existing vehicles originally equipped with type R12 climate control systems.

In spite of the R12 restrictions, there are products being developed and sold in the after market as R12 substitutes, or "drop-in's". These products have NOT been tested for compatibility with Porsche vehicles, and therefore ARE NOT APPROVED by Porsche. The only approved replacement for refrigerant type R12 on Porsche vehicles is refrigerant type R134a.

Please refer to Technical Bulletin Group 8, number 9501 when retrofitting a Porsche climate control system from refrigerant R12 to refrigerant R134a. Special situations apply to those models not referred to in this Technical Bulletin. Contact Technical Services before attempting a refrigerant R134a retrofit on any model not covered in this Technical Bulletin.

"Drop-in" refrigerant R12 substitutes are not approved for use in Porsche vehicles. Any damage or failure resulting from the use of these "drop-in's" will not be considered a warranty matter.

Retrofitting R12 A/C System to R134
Group
8

Model
All

Part Identifier
8717

Number
9501

December 19, 1995

Subject
Retrofitting R12 A/C System to Refrigerant R134

ATTENTION: Service Manager / Service Technician

Models Affected:
All

Concern:
Retrofitting of R12 air conditioning systems to refrigerant R134a (formerly R12).

General Information:
As of January 1, 1995, (January 1,1996 for USA) production of refrigerant R12 containing CFC substances is no longer permitted in accordance with legislation in the European Union and several other countries and will be made illegal (with specific exceptions) worldwide in the near future. Starting with Model Year '93 (P), all air conditioning systems of new Porsche vehicles are factory charged with non-CFC refrigerant R134a. The formerly used refrigerant R12 was phased out at the same time. A new type of refrigerant oil, ND-Oil 8, must be used in conjunction with refrigerant R134a. This refrigerant oil is of a synthetic type. The formerly used refrigerant oil based on mineral oils will not mix with the ND-Oil 8 refrigerant oil required for R134a.

Due to the chemical properties of the new refrigerant R134a and of the new refrigerant oil, modifications to the materials of various components exposed to refrigerant oil have become necessary.

The maximum refrigerant and refrigerant oil capacities are changed in this retrofitting process!

Retrofitting:
In most cases, older vehicles fitted with air conditioners charged with R12 refrigerant containing CFC can be converted without any major problems.

It is the responsibility of the dealer/retrofitting agent to maintain A/C system integrity during the retrofitting process.

It is of particular importance to draw off the R12 refrigerant and refrigerant oil charge. Recycling service equipment should be used for this purpose and to separate the refrigerant oil from the refrigerant.

Retrofitting operations should only be performed by qualified personnel in Porsche workshops. After retrofitting, a sticker should be attached near the compressor and in the Maintenance Booklet to confirm that retrofitting has been performed according to specifications. This technical information provides you with an overview of the required scope of operations and parts requirements for retrofitting air conditioners to non-CFC refrigerant R134a.

Warranty Information:
A two year parts warranty without mileage limitations applies to all Genuine Porsche parts used for retrofitting.

The dealer warrants the A/C system integrity, correct installation and execution of all retrofitting operations.

Arjan B.

Adrian en others,

As a Service manager from Opel [GM], I can tell you we use for all R12 cars, a special fill, legal and ozone safe, which saves you form 'rebuild' your airconditioning system.

We use it for a few years now. The benefit is that you have no costs for rebuild your pump and place no o-rings for r-134a.
The 'bad thing' is that it cools a little more less then R12.

All Opel [GM] are made off the same materials as a Porsche A/C. Aluminium and high pressure hose.

Our experiece is good, we had never a problem with this stuff the last 6 years.

For me, I have still R12 in my car, but I plan to remove it, vacuum it and fill with the R12 replace filling, because A/C works not 100% for warmer days, pump runs but I think there is not Enough filling in the system for now. There is cool a/c air, but not enough.

The name of the filling I can look for next week when somebody wants to know.

Nice weekend you all,

Arjan 964 C2 1992 Black <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Mr. C4

Volks,

How much do you apporx. pay for a R12 top-up incl. labour? How long time does it take?

Ciao,

Johannes E.

Wachuko

[quote]Originally posted by Mr. C4:
<strong>Volks,

How much do you apporx. pay for a R12 top-up incl. labour? How long time does it take?

Ciao,

Johannes E.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I paid US$235.00 and it took 1 hour to empty and refill the system.

christian

Arjan:

Yes please, I am interested in the name.

964spd

[quote]Originally posted by Jaime Diaz:
<strong>


I paid US$235.00 and it took 1 hour to empty and refill the system.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good for you!! I paid US$343 and 2 hr to top it last month. I think shops are more expensive around here.

Wachuko

[quote]Originally posted by 964spd:
<strong>

Good for you!! I paid US$343 and 2 hr to top it last month. I think shops are more expensive around here.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Here is the break down:

Labor: (1 hour and 15 minutes) 86.95
Parts: 3 - 12oz can 124.95
Total: 211.90
Enviromental - 1.50
Shop Supplies- 8.48

%10 discount in part and labor for PCA Membership

Total with Tax- US$212.72

JW in Texas

Guys, I paid $ 47.00 to top off each of my 964s. The breakdown was:

$ 20.00 labor
$ 27.00 (3) 12oz cans of Freeze 12

They both are cooling great!
Jay <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Richard 92 C2

Hi Arjan

Do you know if the "fill" you refer to is available in the United Kingdom and if so where ?

Thanks!