Arjan B.

Hi Guys,

I want to show you the results from oil test, which I did fom the oil which cam off my engine between the buy in December 01 and January 03.

My oil was new in December 01, Mobil 1. After the new fill, a Oil cooler was replaced, it leaked.
Then I let adjust the valves after a few months.
In both jobs the oil was not changed, only filled to max. level.

The results where:
Iron: 13.9 ppmc
Lead: --.-
Cupper 34.9 ppmc!!! [3 times higher then normal!]
Tin 2.3 ppmc
Chrome 1.1 ppmc
Aluminium 5.4 ppmc
Nickel 1.8 ppmc
Water --.-
Fuelresidu --.-

This was for a 10.000 Miles usage of the oil.
Most street use, a few times the autobahn [max speed]

The Lab. guy said, your crankshaft bearings wear to much..... [cupper level to high]
Porsche people say, your bearings are made of aluminium and not cupper composed bearings, only the camshafts drive train contains a cupper composed material bearing.
Also the valve guides are maid of cupper composed material, but they are not in contact with the oil so much.

Is the high cupper level from:

1* The new oil cooler
2* Oil lines
3* Bearings from the camshafts area????

Who is the one who could give more info to me??

Greetings,

Arjan
964 C2C 1992 Black

mojorizing

Hi Arjan,
Looking at your test results, it appears to me that your mechanic used copper based anti-seize on the threads of the fittings for your cooler change-out...a little getting into the oil adds greatly to the ppm of CU.

I'm not sure, but I don't think there is an elemental source of CU other than what is present in journal bearings/valve guides alloys containing copper. You got an abundance of CU compared to chrome and nickel. I would retest after next oil change to get a trend or a new baseline. Let us know what you find!
Kevin, metallurgist wanna-be
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

914und993

On the 993 engine, and probably the 964 engine, there is apparently a section of bronze tube that the dipstick scrapes past. Some 993 owners have noted small flakes of this bronze on their dipsticks, but they are not apparent on oil drained from the car.

I wonder if the elevated levels of copper on the oil analysis could be from this source?

Chip

Arjan B.

O.k. guys,

The test was done by the Total/Fina/Elf lab, and is called he ANAC test. It is a test which very often used by truck an transportation companies to see the quality of their engines/oil is o.k.
I made some talks with them and they say that they have a data base with other Porsche engines, so they can compare the data.

I was wondering if some of you guys had a same sort of expierence in the past, and had an idea what else it could be that my copper level is so high.

When the bearings from the crankshaft would be seize to much, the aluminium level would be higher, but that is o.k., it is in the 'green' level.

I'll wait for more response......

Greetings, and have a nice Sunday.

Arjan
964 C2C Black 1992

914und993

Have you removed your engine tray? If not, you might be seeing accelerated wear of the silicon-bronze valve guides due to heat trapping by the undertray.

Chip

Kevin

Arjan;

If you have a high concentration of copper, most likely this is caused by pinched rod bearings. This happens typically from a missed shift. Mostly a wrong down-shift. The rod bolts stretch and you pinch the rod bearings! The next step is a spun bearing....

Arjan B.

Kevin,
Thanks for the reply.

I had NEVER a to high rpm, not with wrong shifting or near the rpm limitter.
I stay always in the safe region, max 6000 rpm it my limit.

But, the question is, there are no copper holding bearing, exept the little ones in the camshaft drive train.

Before i bought the 964, my car had a older aged owner, a factory director, who drove mostly in the city of Padova, Italy for more the 9 years. Never used as a race activity car.

Greetings,

Arjan
964 C2C Black 1992
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Arjan B.

914und993,

I did not remove my undertray, the temp. is overhere not that hot.
And........ valve guide material is not in contact with oil.

Thanks for the reply!

Arjan
964 C2C 1992 Black

HarryD

Arjan,

While testing is good, interpretation, as you are finding out, can be tricky. When I was working, this type of work was a big part of my job.

The problem with a single test is that you do not have a full picture. While you can make generalizations about what should and should not be present, each system is different and can show an elevated or low reading and still be ok. It is a common mistake to see a number that appears to be "high" and draw a conclusion when more detailed testing shows the level to be normal. In one case, we had apparent high test results and my management was ready to spend $100k to "fix" the problem by a very heroic cleaning method. I suggested a retest to verify the supposed source. The retest showed that the source was not where the common knowledge though it should be, but was related to another problem that would not have been corrected as part of the $100k fix. In reality, it cost $5,000 to fix the problem by replacing a mis-specified hose. Further, the heroric cleaning method was not necessary once the true source of the contamination was eliminated.

You can do the following: Retest now. If the elevated metals are from the antiseize, I would think that by now, any that could get into your oil was already there at the 10,000 mile test, therefore, the level should be stable and you should get roughly the same result. On the other hand, if the metal is from a part that is wearing, the metals should continue to rise.

Good luck.

HarryD

Arjan,

One more war story...

In another case, I had one of the plant folks run a test on my materials when he was having a problem and he was sure it was the material. He did this test without my knowledge. When he got the results, he saw an "elevated" result and called me to task for failing to deliver what he had wanted. In this case, I was doing routine QA testing and had data to show that the contaminant of concern was normally 50% higher than his data indicated when things were going well. I offered to add more contamination to the material but was refused.

Single time testing is very dangerous. You need a trend to get the whole story. Most people tend to test when things are goiung badly and have no idea of what "normal" is. I encourge you to retest to verify the apparent contamination source.