Autocross Set-up Discussion?????
01-22-2002, 04:39 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Autocross Set-up Discussion?????
Hello.
Anyone out there running a 964 in either SCCA or PCA autocross?
I would like to get some discussion going among autocrossers, particularly those running a 964.
FWIW, I did search the Racing board, and didn't find much at all WRT Autocross.
Anyway. I am an avid autocrosser (11+ years), and have recently purchased my 1st Porsche; a '90 C2 Coupe. Obviously, I am quite anxious to run my first event (it will be in mid February in Roswell, New Mexico. No, I have not seen any aliens).
I have had some moderate success at the national level of SCCA Solo (a few National Tour Trophies, and a class win at a Pro Solo), so I would certainly not consider myself a beginner, but I know NOTHING about set-up and driving technique in a 911.
That big hunk of metal hanging out the back end and the lack of same hanging out the front end does make things a bit different then my previous two Solo cars (a '98 Integra Type R and a '94 Miata R Package).
I will be running both SCCA Solo II (B Stock in the current reclassifications), as well as PCA events (Class 10 I believe). I don't expect to do any DE events, so my focus will be strictly autocross.
While PCA has much more liberal preperation allowances for stock competition than SCCA, I am planning to keep the car pretty close to stock so as not to be bumped up into an unfavorable class. Actually, in SCCA B Stock, the 964 is not thought to be very well classed as it sits, but I don't know that anyone has seriously run one at the national level. I will attempt to find out where it and I stand at the SCCA National Tour in San Diego this March.
In any event, I will be using the stock (6 and 7 by 16) design 90 wheels, and will run Kumho V700 VictoRacers in a 225/50 and 245/45 size. Note that these are NOT the new ECSTA V700, but the original Kumhos. The new ones are not available in the correct 16" sizes. I don't expect that these will require spacers, but would be glad to hear from others that may have run these tires in these sizes on a 964 in competition.
What I am most interested in at this point is alignment settings, tire pressures, and most importantly, driving technique.
Obviously, a great deal of experimentation and seat time are going to be called for while I get in tune with the handling of the car. Anything that will short-cut the learning curve will be much appreciated.
Best Regards,
Brian
Anyone out there running a 964 in either SCCA or PCA autocross?
I would like to get some discussion going among autocrossers, particularly those running a 964.
FWIW, I did search the Racing board, and didn't find much at all WRT Autocross.
Anyway. I am an avid autocrosser (11+ years), and have recently purchased my 1st Porsche; a '90 C2 Coupe. Obviously, I am quite anxious to run my first event (it will be in mid February in Roswell, New Mexico. No, I have not seen any aliens).
I have had some moderate success at the national level of SCCA Solo (a few National Tour Trophies, and a class win at a Pro Solo), so I would certainly not consider myself a beginner, but I know NOTHING about set-up and driving technique in a 911.
That big hunk of metal hanging out the back end and the lack of same hanging out the front end does make things a bit different then my previous two Solo cars (a '98 Integra Type R and a '94 Miata R Package).
I will be running both SCCA Solo II (B Stock in the current reclassifications), as well as PCA events (Class 10 I believe). I don't expect to do any DE events, so my focus will be strictly autocross.
While PCA has much more liberal preperation allowances for stock competition than SCCA, I am planning to keep the car pretty close to stock so as not to be bumped up into an unfavorable class. Actually, in SCCA B Stock, the 964 is not thought to be very well classed as it sits, but I don't know that anyone has seriously run one at the national level. I will attempt to find out where it and I stand at the SCCA National Tour in San Diego this March.
In any event, I will be using the stock (6 and 7 by 16) design 90 wheels, and will run Kumho V700 VictoRacers in a 225/50 and 245/45 size. Note that these are NOT the new ECSTA V700, but the original Kumhos. The new ones are not available in the correct 16" sizes. I don't expect that these will require spacers, but would be glad to hear from others that may have run these tires in these sizes on a 964 in competition.
What I am most interested in at this point is alignment settings, tire pressures, and most importantly, driving technique.
Obviously, a great deal of experimentation and seat time are going to be called for while I get in tune with the handling of the car. Anything that will short-cut the learning curve will be much appreciated.
Best Regards,
Brian
01-22-2002, 06:39 PM
#2
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brian,
Cool, an experienced autocrosser in our midst!
I have signed up for not one, but two autocross schools with the PCA. Feb 10 will be a one day school with the Golden Gate Region, and Apr 13-14 will be with Zone 7.
Anyway, this should clue you into the fact that you should take my autocross advice with a grain of salt.
Have you read The Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry Watts? The Zone 7 autocross school sent a copy of the book with recommended sections to read before coming to the school. Hank is a great driver, who happens to drive 911's. A lot of the material in the book was written with a 911 in mind -- there's one section where he compares the approach to a turn between a Corvette driver and a Porsche 911 driver. There's some very interesting stuff in this book, to say the least. Probably a lot of it is review for you, though.
The C2 with stock set up is prone to understeer at low-speed, autocross type turns. Of course, with the engine back there, you can counteract it with lifting off the throttle to get that back end turned around.
I know lots of people on this board will be able to give you some practical hints about driving technique, alignment, etc. As far as I go, I've read the books, I understand it in theory, but I need to get some practical experience under my belt. I can't wait for the autox schools!
-- Melissa
Cool, an experienced autocrosser in our midst!
I have signed up for not one, but two autocross schools with the PCA. Feb 10 will be a one day school with the Golden Gate Region, and Apr 13-14 will be with Zone 7.
Anyway, this should clue you into the fact that you should take my autocross advice with a grain of salt.
Have you read The Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry Watts? The Zone 7 autocross school sent a copy of the book with recommended sections to read before coming to the school. Hank is a great driver, who happens to drive 911's. A lot of the material in the book was written with a 911 in mind -- there's one section where he compares the approach to a turn between a Corvette driver and a Porsche 911 driver. There's some very interesting stuff in this book, to say the least. Probably a lot of it is review for you, though.
The C2 with stock set up is prone to understeer at low-speed, autocross type turns. Of course, with the engine back there, you can counteract it with lifting off the throttle to get that back end turned around.
I know lots of people on this board will be able to give you some practical hints about driving technique, alignment, etc. As far as I go, I've read the books, I understand it in theory, but I need to get some practical experience under my belt. I can't wait for the autox schools!
-- Melissa
01-22-2002, 07:31 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Brian:
I'd like to help, but I don't know where to start. I've run my '93 RSA (964) in SCCA ASP for 4 seasons. I ran an '88 911 in AS for 6 years before that. All of this is at the regional level, so my guess is that I'm not as good a driver as you. The National Tour and Pro Solo drivers who sometimes show up to beat my butt usually do so by more than a second; a lifetime in an autox run. Still, I was fortunate enough to win class championships all those years, usually against better drivers than I. I'll tell you some things that I *think* I know.
First, the 964 isn't a natural in stock form. Like most 911s, 964s probably have a better chance in the SP and P classes where more can be done to (and spent on) them, especially the suspension. But even in SP and P classes they aren't the hot car at the national level (with few exceptions), and haven't been for years.
The 964 pushes, so you'll need to make it looser to be faster. This means keeping the front end soft relative to the rear. I disconnect my sway bar for autoxing, but don't try that on the track. The first time I did that was the busiest steering day of my life. The rear-end tried to pass me first on the left, then on the right. But I eventually learned the necessary changes in throttle application. Disconnecting the sway bar works best on very tight courses. If the course is wide open, with fast sweepers and transitions, the disconnected bar will be a handicap, but also a big thrill.
Throttle application changes (from what you're used to) such as lifting in a tight turn will also initiate oversteer to tighten your turn. Braking in a turn will quicken the transition to oversteer and intertain spectators.
Since you can't remove much rear-end weight, front-end weight isn't such a bad thing, so don't worry about having plenty of gas. I run with about 2/3 tank. I know of someone who throws a big sack of sand in the trunk. It must weigh 50# or more.
You'll probably want more negative camber than you'll be able to get in the front and stay stock. One degree is about as much as you'll be able to dial in without adjustable camber plates, but your tires (the same that I run) will want 2.5 degrees or more. Most people apparently set caster to it's maximum. Setting more negative camber in the rear is not a problem. There are suspension settings that are recommended just for autox. I don't remember what they are because I need a compromise for street, track, and autox.
Finally, people use different pressures in those Kumhos, depending on wheel/tire sizes, car weight, prefered feel, and extent of ignorance. Last year was my first on Kumhos. I used 36f/38r to 38f/40r cold, but later learned that one of my competitors in a lighter 911 was using significantly lower pressures. What I'm thinking is that the lower pressures *feel* like they provide more grip (thus make you feel more comfortable and secure), while the higher pressures feel a little slippery or "skatey." The higher (skatey) pressures may be quicker, however. I have 8 and 9X17 wheels with 225 and 255 tires. I think he had 7 and 8X16 wheels with 225 and 245 tires on a car several hundred pounds lighter than ours.
Your car should handle the wheel and tire sizes you mentioned without any rubbing. I should mention, however, that the Kumho competition tires are a little wider than the same street tire sizes of most brands (specs available at tirerack.com). Also, my car has about .5" more tire clearance than yours.
Yes, you'll have a learning curve with your new car, but it will probably be a steep one. The car is challenging and fun to drive fast. The most fun I've had at autox since my Austin Mini Cooper.
Oh, I almost forgot. My wife and I lived in Albuquerque when I worked at UNM. We both loved it. That's truly the land of enchantment. I was into dirt bikes then, with many miles of open desert. We left after the aliens came.
Jim
I'd like to help, but I don't know where to start. I've run my '93 RSA (964) in SCCA ASP for 4 seasons. I ran an '88 911 in AS for 6 years before that. All of this is at the regional level, so my guess is that I'm not as good a driver as you. The National Tour and Pro Solo drivers who sometimes show up to beat my butt usually do so by more than a second; a lifetime in an autox run. Still, I was fortunate enough to win class championships all those years, usually against better drivers than I. I'll tell you some things that I *think* I know.
First, the 964 isn't a natural in stock form. Like most 911s, 964s probably have a better chance in the SP and P classes where more can be done to (and spent on) them, especially the suspension. But even in SP and P classes they aren't the hot car at the national level (with few exceptions), and haven't been for years.
The 964 pushes, so you'll need to make it looser to be faster. This means keeping the front end soft relative to the rear. I disconnect my sway bar for autoxing, but don't try that on the track. The first time I did that was the busiest steering day of my life. The rear-end tried to pass me first on the left, then on the right. But I eventually learned the necessary changes in throttle application. Disconnecting the sway bar works best on very tight courses. If the course is wide open, with fast sweepers and transitions, the disconnected bar will be a handicap, but also a big thrill.
Throttle application changes (from what you're used to) such as lifting in a tight turn will also initiate oversteer to tighten your turn. Braking in a turn will quicken the transition to oversteer and intertain spectators.
Since you can't remove much rear-end weight, front-end weight isn't such a bad thing, so don't worry about having plenty of gas. I run with about 2/3 tank. I know of someone who throws a big sack of sand in the trunk. It must weigh 50# or more.
You'll probably want more negative camber than you'll be able to get in the front and stay stock. One degree is about as much as you'll be able to dial in without adjustable camber plates, but your tires (the same that I run) will want 2.5 degrees or more. Most people apparently set caster to it's maximum. Setting more negative camber in the rear is not a problem. There are suspension settings that are recommended just for autox. I don't remember what they are because I need a compromise for street, track, and autox.
Finally, people use different pressures in those Kumhos, depending on wheel/tire sizes, car weight, prefered feel, and extent of ignorance. Last year was my first on Kumhos. I used 36f/38r to 38f/40r cold, but later learned that one of my competitors in a lighter 911 was using significantly lower pressures. What I'm thinking is that the lower pressures *feel* like they provide more grip (thus make you feel more comfortable and secure), while the higher pressures feel a little slippery or "skatey." The higher (skatey) pressures may be quicker, however. I have 8 and 9X17 wheels with 225 and 255 tires. I think he had 7 and 8X16 wheels with 225 and 245 tires on a car several hundred pounds lighter than ours.
Your car should handle the wheel and tire sizes you mentioned without any rubbing. I should mention, however, that the Kumho competition tires are a little wider than the same street tire sizes of most brands (specs available at tirerack.com). Also, my car has about .5" more tire clearance than yours.
Yes, you'll have a learning curve with your new car, but it will probably be a steep one. The car is challenging and fun to drive fast. The most fun I've had at autox since my Austin Mini Cooper.
Oh, I almost forgot. My wife and I lived in Albuquerque when I worked at UNM. We both loved it. That's truly the land of enchantment. I was into dirt bikes then, with many miles of open desert. We left after the aliens came.
Jim
01-22-2002, 07:59 PM
#5
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Melissa: I do have Henry Watts book (actually, I have had it for about 10 years!). I need to dust it off. I had forgotten that Henry was a Porsche guy.
Jim: Great info. Much appreciated. As soon as the tires arrive, I will be heading to my alignment shop. BTW, I was planning to lower the car via the adjustable spring perches (again, I am trying to avoid ending up in SP, at least for now).
I am not going to drop it radically, but at present it does seem to sit a tad high, particularly in the front. I expect that this will help the camber situation somewhat.
You pressures are right in the ball park where I ran the K tires on the Type R (amazingly). Your assesment of lower pressures vs. higher presuures feeling like more grip vs. skatey is also right on with my experience.
I will probably use the old "chalk on the sidewall" technique to get close, and fine tune be feel.
Interesting that the opinion is that the 964 is biased to push. You hear all these horror stories about massive oversteer in 911s. I guess any car will spin if you lift in a high speed corner!
I guess the time honored approach of brake in a straight line, turn, squeeze the throttle will work, and maybe even a touch of trail-braking to get the nose pointed in the right direction.
One thing I am looking forward to is the torque relative to my previous cars. The Type R can be quick, but you are constantly shifting, and there is absolutely nothing on tap below about 5,800 RPM. I can turn a pretty good autocross lap if I don't have to be a slave to the tach!
Best Regards,
BL
Jim: Great info. Much appreciated. As soon as the tires arrive, I will be heading to my alignment shop. BTW, I was planning to lower the car via the adjustable spring perches (again, I am trying to avoid ending up in SP, at least for now).
I am not going to drop it radically, but at present it does seem to sit a tad high, particularly in the front. I expect that this will help the camber situation somewhat.
You pressures are right in the ball park where I ran the K tires on the Type R (amazingly). Your assesment of lower pressures vs. higher presuures feeling like more grip vs. skatey is also right on with my experience.
I will probably use the old "chalk on the sidewall" technique to get close, and fine tune be feel.
Interesting that the opinion is that the 964 is biased to push. You hear all these horror stories about massive oversteer in 911s. I guess any car will spin if you lift in a high speed corner!
I guess the time honored approach of brake in a straight line, turn, squeeze the throttle will work, and maybe even a touch of trail-braking to get the nose pointed in the right direction.
One thing I am looking forward to is the torque relative to my previous cars. The Type R can be quick, but you are constantly shifting, and there is absolutely nothing on tap below about 5,800 RPM. I can turn a pretty good autocross lap if I don't have to be a slave to the tach!
Best Regards,
BL
01-22-2002, 08:34 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Yes, you will like the torque. I get to second and stay there.
Lowering with the spring perches is fine, but a corner balance is recommended after lowering. 911s seem to be very sensitive to proper corner balance. Maybe it's because 60% of the weight is behind you. Standard recommended ride height from the floor by the wheel hub up to the bottom of the front fender lip is 25.5" It should be about 25" to the rear fender lip. That gives about a 1 degree slope downward toward the front.
While earlier 911s had big bang terminal oversteer (that's when the reputation was established), there were more complaints about understeer starting with the 964. Over the years Porsche worked hard to reduce oversteer and keep drivers out of trouble. Now we hear the complaint (from those who don't have a 996) that anybody, even a novice, can drive a 996 fast. Normally that would be good, right?
Jim
Lowering with the spring perches is fine, but a corner balance is recommended after lowering. 911s seem to be very sensitive to proper corner balance. Maybe it's because 60% of the weight is behind you. Standard recommended ride height from the floor by the wheel hub up to the bottom of the front fender lip is 25.5" It should be about 25" to the rear fender lip. That gives about a 1 degree slope downward toward the front.
While earlier 911s had big bang terminal oversteer (that's when the reputation was established), there were more complaints about understeer starting with the 964. Over the years Porsche worked hard to reduce oversteer and keep drivers out of trouble. Now we hear the complaint (from those who don't have a 996) that anybody, even a novice, can drive a 996 fast. Normally that would be good, right?
Jim
01-22-2002, 08:56 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
This is an interesting string. I autocross a '92 Carrera Cup Edition but drive an Acura Type R around most of the time on street. I run the Kuhmo's on both, Ecsta 712's on the Type R and Victoracers on the Cup in 225 and 255x17 on 8.5 and 10 inch wheels. The 911 Cup a few hundred pounds less than an RSA and I run around 31F and 33R PSI cold. I have nothing to add to what people have said other than I find it helpful to corner weight the car and add a little toe out in the front, around 5 minuts or so per wheel and this seems to help the understeer. Driving style with 911 important in controlling corner entry understeer and oversteer in sweepers. Don't lift in the sweepers, let the car turn in before you get on throttle in the tight stuff. Have fun.
Trending Topics
01-22-2002, 11:40 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
I run my 92 C2 in B stock in the local SCCA autocrosses. The car is very prone to understeer in tight turns. Trail braking hard into turns can help give the front end more bite, but there's a fine line between giving too much brake and having the tail end swing around.
I've also noticed that my times seem to be better with higher tire pressures. I currently run Toyo RA-1's (R compound) in 205/245 Front/rear in 16's. My tire pressures are 36 and 42 F/R, although I'm still experimenting.
The 964's don't steer as quickly as other cars I've driven, such as a Miata, so you have to give the steering inputs a little early. This is especially true during quick transitions and slaloms.
Also, I always seem to be in between gears b/c our courses are in the 30 - 50 mph range, which is too high for 1st gear and at the low end of the power band for 2nd.
I've only been autocrossing for 6 months, but it's been a blast so far.
Drew
92 C2
I've also noticed that my times seem to be better with higher tire pressures. I currently run Toyo RA-1's (R compound) in 205/245 Front/rear in 16's. My tire pressures are 36 and 42 F/R, although I'm still experimenting.
The 964's don't steer as quickly as other cars I've driven, such as a Miata, so you have to give the steering inputs a little early. This is especially true during quick transitions and slaloms.
Also, I always seem to be in between gears b/c our courses are in the 30 - 50 mph range, which is too high for 1st gear and at the low end of the power band for 2nd.
I've only been autocrossing for 6 months, but it's been a blast so far.
Drew
92 C2
01-23-2002, 12:43 AM
#9
Race Car
Brian, the only issue I have is that you said you will be running Victoracers, 225 and 245 on a 6" and 7" x 16" wheel...that will result in quite the "bulbous" situation. 
The tire sizes you speak of will work MUCH better if you use 7" and 8" x 16" wheels. That's the only suggestion I'm able to offer over what the previous threads have entailed.
I just participated in my first autocross with my 964 last Sunday. I have done a handfull in my previous 911, a modified SC.
MASSIVE understeer, "push" as some call it - is what I encountered last Sunday, but then it was cold, nice and cold. I am also using the newer, and lighter Kumho ECSTA 700s, as were a few other drivers that had the lower times...so I figured I wasn't doing too bad with that choice?
My pressures were 36f and 38r...seemed to workout okay, started out with 38f and 40r, but that seemed a bit too slippery.
Also, I picked up two seconds just by staying in second gear, once I got there. The beginning was a sharp right hander, then a slalom into a sharp left hander, punch it, then into second...I stayed there for the remainder of the course.
I concur with a previous thread that stated 1st gear was a bit too low for tighter courses and 2nd was a bit too high...but staying in second yielded much faster times, this discovered much to my chagrin...during the "fun runs" afterwards.
Looks like I'll know better next time!
On another note, I disconnected my front swaybar, mainly because I believe I read a previous thread by Jim Michaels and how he disconnects his front swaybar, or maybe it was someone else? I also loosened up the rear a notch, I have Weltmeister adjustable "Cup style" swaybars.
Good Luck with your Auto-X endeavors.
The tire sizes you speak of will work MUCH better if you use 7" and 8" x 16" wheels. That's the only suggestion I'm able to offer over what the previous threads have entailed.
I just participated in my first autocross with my 964 last Sunday. I have done a handfull in my previous 911, a modified SC.
MASSIVE understeer, "push" as some call it - is what I encountered last Sunday, but then it was cold, nice and cold. I am also using the newer, and lighter Kumho ECSTA 700s, as were a few other drivers that had the lower times...so I figured I wasn't doing too bad with that choice?
My pressures were 36f and 38r...seemed to workout okay, started out with 38f and 40r, but that seemed a bit too slippery.
Also, I picked up two seconds just by staying in second gear, once I got there. The beginning was a sharp right hander, then a slalom into a sharp left hander, punch it, then into second...I stayed there for the remainder of the course.
I concur with a previous thread that stated 1st gear was a bit too low for tighter courses and 2nd was a bit too high...but staying in second yielded much faster times, this discovered much to my chagrin...during the "fun runs" afterwards.
Looks like I'll know better next time!
On another note, I disconnected my front swaybar, mainly because I believe I read a previous thread by Jim Michaels and how he disconnects his front swaybar, or maybe it was someone else? I also loosened up the rear a notch, I have Weltmeister adjustable "Cup style" swaybars.
Good Luck with your Auto-X endeavors.
01-23-2002, 11:32 AM
#10
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, this discussion has thus far exceeded my expectations....there are more autocrossers than I would have guessed.
Jeff; I agree with your comments about the tires on a 6/7 inch rim, but FWIW, I have run 225 K Tires on 6 inch rims with some success. In fact, that is the hot National SCCA set-up for the Integra Type R and the Miata I ran (a '94). They do bulge a bit, and on the Type R, they rub a little bit in hard cornering (even with 1/4" spacers), but they also work pretty well.
Also, Kumho does say that the 225 is OK on a 6". Perhaps thay are acknowledging what everyone and his dog have been doing? They do however, call for a minimum of 7.5" for the 245. My tire guy may not like me anymore! Here is a link to the spec page for the K Tires:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.j...ictoRacer+V700
Also, this year's budget does not call for upsizing the race wheels, so I will have to make do. I blew my wheel budget on a set of Mille Miglia Cup 1's (7.7 x 17, 9 x 17) and ECSTA Supras for the street. They do look sweet.
The shop I frequent does have a set of scales, so I may have him corner weight the car in addition to an aligment and lowering. He does a lot of PCA folks, so I will lean on him a bit for his suggestions.
Best Regards,
BL
Jeff; I agree with your comments about the tires on a 6/7 inch rim, but FWIW, I have run 225 K Tires on 6 inch rims with some success. In fact, that is the hot National SCCA set-up for the Integra Type R and the Miata I ran (a '94). They do bulge a bit, and on the Type R, they rub a little bit in hard cornering (even with 1/4" spacers), but they also work pretty well.
Also, Kumho does say that the 225 is OK on a 6". Perhaps thay are acknowledging what everyone and his dog have been doing? They do however, call for a minimum of 7.5" for the 245. My tire guy may not like me anymore! Here is a link to the spec page for the K Tires:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.j...ictoRacer+V700
Also, this year's budget does not call for upsizing the race wheels, so I will have to make do. I blew my wheel budget on a set of Mille Miglia Cup 1's (7.7 x 17, 9 x 17) and ECSTA Supras for the street. They do look sweet.
The shop I frequent does have a set of scales, so I may have him corner weight the car in addition to an aligment and lowering. He does a lot of PCA folks, so I will lean on him a bit for his suggestions.
Best Regards,
BL
01-23-2002, 12:08 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Brian:
I see you've gotten other good input. Some of the new info suggests some of the limitations of remaining SCCA stock that I avoided mentioning. The easiest way to both lower and stiffen, for example, is to buy a set of lowering springs with a slightly stiffer spring rate (much stiffer and you should also get stiffer shocks). That alone would put you in SCCA SP class, however. Wider wheels and tires are also helpful, but also move you up. Jeff mentioned that 225s and 245s are a little too wide for optimum performance on 6 and 7" wide wheels, and I agree. On the other hand, the previous owner won regional and Parade autox championships in my car with tires that were "too wide" for the rims.
Cupcar mentioned a little toe-out in front helps turn-in. That is usually combined with a little toe-in in the rear. It's easy to put in too much.
Jim
I see you've gotten other good input. Some of the new info suggests some of the limitations of remaining SCCA stock that I avoided mentioning. The easiest way to both lower and stiffen, for example, is to buy a set of lowering springs with a slightly stiffer spring rate (much stiffer and you should also get stiffer shocks). That alone would put you in SCCA SP class, however. Wider wheels and tires are also helpful, but also move you up. Jeff mentioned that 225s and 245s are a little too wide for optimum performance on 6 and 7" wide wheels, and I agree. On the other hand, the previous owner won regional and Parade autox championships in my car with tires that were "too wide" for the rims.
Cupcar mentioned a little toe-out in front helps turn-in. That is usually combined with a little toe-in in the rear. It's easy to put in too much.
Jim
01-23-2002, 02:06 PM
#12
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One other thing....
Brian, are you sure your stock rear rims are 7"? As far as I know, the Design 90's that came on the early 964's are 6" in the front and 8" in the rear.
245's worked great on my 8" Design 90's. But the 225's in the front looked a bit wide for the 6" rims, so I went back to 205's.
Now that I've gone up to 17" rims, this is all a moot point for me...
-- Melissa
Brian, are you sure your stock rear rims are 7"? As far as I know, the Design 90's that came on the early 964's are 6" in the front and 8" in the rear.
245's worked great on my 8" Design 90's. But the 225's in the front looked a bit wide for the 6" rims, so I went back to 205's.
Now that I've gone up to 17" rims, this is all a moot point for me...
-- Melissa
01-23-2002, 03:29 PM
#13
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Melissa,
I think you are correct regarding the stock wheels. I guess I just had 7" on the brain. The Red Book does in fact say that they are 8". Yippee, that means they will fit better with the 245's.
The Design 90's were only on the car for the test drive. My dealer actually arranged the acquizition and installation of the Cup 1's and ECSTA Supras before I took delivery.
Best Regards,
BL
I think you are correct regarding the stock wheels. I guess I just had 7" on the brain. The Red Book does in fact say that they are 8". Yippee, that means they will fit better with the 245's.
The Design 90's were only on the car for the test drive. My dealer actually arranged the acquizition and installation of the Cup 1's and ECSTA Supras before I took delivery.
Best Regards,
BL
01-23-2002, 03:47 PM
#14
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brian,
Shoot, then I can't sell you my 8" (wide) Design 90's.
Well, I'm all set for my two Autocross Schools. After that, I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions to ask YOU!
Thom,
I'll look for you at the Zone 7 School in April. Can't wait to see the 3.6 transplant in person!
-- Melissa
Shoot, then I can't sell you my 8" (wide) Design 90's.
Well, I'm all set for my two Autocross Schools. After that, I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions to ask YOU!
Thom,
I'll look for you at the Zone 7 School in April. Can't wait to see the 3.6 transplant in person!
-- Melissa
