FilmStar Hot Film .....Comments pls
07-23-2002, 10:15 AM
#16
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Hi rennlisters,
Gotta say I agree with Adrian, but here's some info to explain why.
A slightly different spin on this one. I used to drive a 1988 SAAB 900 Turbo 16S, and had a bit of literature lying around on the MAF setup in the SAAB. Its major benefit is the fact that it's the mass of air that's measured as opposed to the volume which is what the standard 964 setup does. So what....well the theory is that density of air varies with temperature and atmospheric pressure, so the Porsche setup will record the same Volume or air flow at 0 degrees, and at 30 degrees ambient temp, when in fact the amount of oxygen available to burn is significantly different. The issue is that the porsche ECU has to be programmed with tolerances to allow for this iunaccuracy in Oxygen measurement = sub optimum performance for some markets. What I don't know is whether the Porsche setup measures ambient air temp or pressure, to calculate mass and therefore achieve optimum fuel/air mixtures, Adrian?.
With the MAF setup you always get an accurate measure of air mass, and therefore oxygen content, which the ECU can use to calculate optimum injector opening times. In summary it's main selling point is "the fuel can be metered more accurately in relation to the oxygen content of the air".
For those of you who want to know exactly how it works, here goes.
The air flows across an electrically heated platinim wire, in a tubular air meter. An ECU measures the electrical energy required to keep the wire's temperature constant, which is a maeasure of the mass of air flowing across the wire. At the same time the ECU has inputs on the engine speed and temp, so optimum fuel can be metered at all times.
In order to get it to work in a porsche, as Adrian says, you need the compatibility across the whole setup: sensors, loom, ECU, and injectors, not to mention that on the SAAB, the rev limiter was also controlled by the same ECU which cuts the fuel at 6000 rpm i.e. not open injector signals sent. Oh, one final point, as the wire is heated to 1000 deg C at engine switch off (to burn off deposits), the platinum wire was known to break = new Bosch MAF = £250+ from a breaker!!
Gotta say I agree with Adrian, but here's some info to explain why.
A slightly different spin on this one. I used to drive a 1988 SAAB 900 Turbo 16S, and had a bit of literature lying around on the MAF setup in the SAAB. Its major benefit is the fact that it's the mass of air that's measured as opposed to the volume which is what the standard 964 setup does. So what....well the theory is that density of air varies with temperature and atmospheric pressure, so the Porsche setup will record the same Volume or air flow at 0 degrees, and at 30 degrees ambient temp, when in fact the amount of oxygen available to burn is significantly different. The issue is that the porsche ECU has to be programmed with tolerances to allow for this iunaccuracy in Oxygen measurement = sub optimum performance for some markets. What I don't know is whether the Porsche setup measures ambient air temp or pressure, to calculate mass and therefore achieve optimum fuel/air mixtures, Adrian?.
With the MAF setup you always get an accurate measure of air mass, and therefore oxygen content, which the ECU can use to calculate optimum injector opening times. In summary it's main selling point is "the fuel can be metered more accurately in relation to the oxygen content of the air".
For those of you who want to know exactly how it works, here goes.
The air flows across an electrically heated platinim wire, in a tubular air meter. An ECU measures the electrical energy required to keep the wire's temperature constant, which is a maeasure of the mass of air flowing across the wire. At the same time the ECU has inputs on the engine speed and temp, so optimum fuel can be metered at all times.
In order to get it to work in a porsche, as Adrian says, you need the compatibility across the whole setup: sensors, loom, ECU, and injectors, not to mention that on the SAAB, the rev limiter was also controlled by the same ECU which cuts the fuel at 6000 rpm i.e. not open injector signals sent. Oh, one final point, as the wire is heated to 1000 deg C at engine switch off (to burn off deposits), the platinum wire was known to break = new Bosch MAF = £250+ from a breaker!!
07-23-2002, 10:20 AM
#17
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Dear Taj,
The 964 uses an electro-mechanical airflow sensor with a separate (but built into the assembly) temperature sensor measuring ambient temperature inthe airbox for calculated density. The MAF does not need this extra temp sensor as you know. The conversion unit required for the MAF also fools the DME for the temp sensor input as well. Lot of fooling for no gains.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
The 964 uses an electro-mechanical airflow sensor with a separate (but built into the assembly) temperature sensor measuring ambient temperature inthe airbox for calculated density. The MAF does not need this extra temp sensor as you know. The conversion unit required for the MAF also fools the DME for the temp sensor input as well. Lot of fooling for no gains.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
07-23-2002, 10:26 AM
#18
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Adrian
[quote]no gains. <hr></blockquote>
How can you say there are no gains when I can demonstrate significant gains in bhp and torque?
[quote]no gains. <hr></blockquote>
How can you say there are no gains when I can demonstrate significant gains in bhp and torque?
07-23-2002, 02:40 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Adrian:
<strong>Dear Taj,
The 964 uses an electro-mechanical airflow sensor with a separate (but built into the assembly) temperature sensor measuring ambient temperature inthe airbox for calculated density. The MAF does not need this extra temp sensor as you know. The conversion unit required for the MAF also fools the DME for the temp sensor input as well. Lot of fooling for no gains.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is also a sensor for atmospheric pressure as well. Thus the DME measures air flow, temp, and atmospheric pressure (altitude) and calculates the air mass so that the right ammount of fuel can be injected - injector sprat time.
If I know how to post images I would send you the pin out of the DME connector to prove what signals it uses.
<strong>Dear Taj,
The 964 uses an electro-mechanical airflow sensor with a separate (but built into the assembly) temperature sensor measuring ambient temperature inthe airbox for calculated density. The MAF does not need this extra temp sensor as you know. The conversion unit required for the MAF also fools the DME for the temp sensor input as well. Lot of fooling for no gains.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is also a sensor for atmospheric pressure as well. Thus the DME measures air flow, temp, and atmospheric pressure (altitude) and calculates the air mass so that the right ammount of fuel can be injected - injector sprat time.
If I know how to post images I would send you the pin out of the DME connector to prove what signals it uses.
07-23-2002, 02:43 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by tonytaylor:
<strong>Adrian
How can you say there are no gains when I can demonstrate significant gains in bhp and torque?</strong><hr></blockquote>
How much of the gain is due to the MAF and how much to the chip? I would say 95% chip 5% MAF assuming that the BHP figures were not erm - massaged by the operator
<strong>Adrian
How can you say there are no gains when I can demonstrate significant gains in bhp and torque?</strong><hr></blockquote>
How much of the gain is due to the MAF and how much to the chip? I would say 95% chip 5% MAF assuming that the BHP figures were not erm - massaged by the operator
07-23-2002, 02:59 PM
#21
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SteveW@stig
[quote] figures were not erm - massaged by the operator <hr></blockquote>
I have posted dyno figures that are independant of AMD and they rated the car at 250+ bhp at the wheels.I can`t see why they would massage the figures.
[quote] How much of the gain is due to the MAF and how much to the chip? <hr></blockquote>
As the chip and MAF are fitted together and in this case the chip is custom wrote to take account of the MAF the conversion should really be considered a single product.
BTW I know of no chips that produce these gains.
[quote] figures were not erm - massaged by the operator <hr></blockquote>
I have posted dyno figures that are independant of AMD and they rated the car at 250+ bhp at the wheels.I can`t see why they would massage the figures.
[quote] How much of the gain is due to the MAF and how much to the chip? <hr></blockquote>
As the chip and MAF are fitted together and in this case the chip is custom wrote to take account of the MAF the conversion should really be considered a single product.
BTW I know of no chips that produce these gains.
07-23-2002, 04:54 PM
#22
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A point that may (or may not) be of interest is that when my MAF wasn`t working I replaced the MAF with my original sensor but retained the AMD chip and the car ran fine albeit with a noticable drop in performance - I`d estimate with this set up performance was similar to standard.Hence I feel that [quote] 95% chip 5% MAF <hr></blockquote> is incorrect.
07-24-2002, 05:22 AM
#23
Tony
I agree with you. There is no way a chip can produce 95% of the gain up to 250rwhp. I think possibly the chip and MAF together produce results far greater than the sum of the parts if you see what I mean.
Anyway, it is clear that if any of us want to go to AMD and have this done we can expect around 250rwhp with a bit of luck.
Congratulations Tony on being the first person that has posted actual and real data on this conversion since I joined this forum. I for one thank you for all your efforts!
Christer
I agree with you. There is no way a chip can produce 95% of the gain up to 250rwhp. I think possibly the chip and MAF together produce results far greater than the sum of the parts if you see what I mean.
Anyway, it is clear that if any of us want to go to AMD and have this done we can expect around 250rwhp with a bit of luck.
Congratulations Tony on being the first person that has posted actual and real data on this conversion since I joined this forum. I for one thank you for all your efforts!
Christer
07-24-2002, 06:01 AM
#24
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Dear Steve,
There is a pressure sensor input to the DME. It is assumed that combined with air temp, provides the data for the air density calculation to be carried out within the DME. However it is very basic. I am not convinced that the pressure input is of much use at all. Bosch were not forthcoming on what is the actual function of this pressure sensor. Yes I have read all the books but confirmation has not been forthcoming.
If you ever climb a mountain in a 964 you would find out real quick that air density does not figure much in the engine management. I have had my C4 at over 3000m and if I said 150HP I would say I was lucky.
There is an altitude sensor in the Turbos and they keep flying regardless of altitude.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
There is a pressure sensor input to the DME. It is assumed that combined with air temp, provides the data for the air density calculation to be carried out within the DME. However it is very basic. I am not convinced that the pressure input is of much use at all. Bosch were not forthcoming on what is the actual function of this pressure sensor. Yes I have read all the books but confirmation has not been forthcoming.
If you ever climb a mountain in a 964 you would find out real quick that air density does not figure much in the engine management. I have had my C4 at over 3000m and if I said 150HP I would say I was lucky.
There is an altitude sensor in the Turbos and they keep flying regardless of altitude.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
07-24-2002, 08:44 AM
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I do love a good dicussion 
The real problem here is the lack of any solid data with Porsche and Bosch being so secretive about what goes on inside the DME.
You will always loose power with higher altitude due to the lack of air density. I was at Kyalami circuit in South Africa (6,000ft) driving a BMW M3 and it felt rather average. I think you loose 3% per 1,000ft or something like that, I must look it up. A turbo car can increase the boost to offset the altitude loss of air density.
Back to the MAF - 930 motor sport do not use any airflow/mass device on their 325BHP conversion instead they do for a MAP(manifold absolute pressure) sensor.
Still not convinced that a MAF really gives you that much. I can see that it could improve throttle slightly but that is all.
The real problem here is the lack of any solid data with Porsche and Bosch being so secretive about what goes on inside the DME.
You will always loose power with higher altitude due to the lack of air density. I was at Kyalami circuit in South Africa (6,000ft) driving a BMW M3 and it felt rather average. I think you loose 3% per 1,000ft or something like that, I must look it up. A turbo car can increase the boost to offset the altitude loss of air density.
Back to the MAF - 930 motor sport do not use any airflow/mass device on their 325BHP conversion instead they do for a MAP(manifold absolute pressure) sensor.
Still not convinced that a MAF really gives you that much. I can see that it could improve throttle slightly but that is all.
07-24-2002, 10:12 AM
#27
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SteveW is right. 930 Motorsport use the Motec Engine Management unit which measures manifold pressure.
The Motec is a "State of the Art" engine management unit and can be programmed to take effect of any engine modifications. With the aid of a fitting kit it can be connected directly into the 964 wiring loom.
Their conversion includes new high flow injectors which deliver significantly more fuel into the engine when required. This is the ONLY way to make an engine produce more power - more air and more fuel produces more power. - its that simple. Changing the chip merely give a bit more ignition advance and slightly richens up the mixture through the rev range.
The key to the Motec unit is that it injects precisely the right amount of fuel into the cylinder that the engine needs and at exactly the right time.
I heard two Motec cars (one 964RS and a 993RS) at Branham Park last weekend and not only did they sound fantastic but the owners were really praising their results, power gains and improved fuel economy. Also with the Motec conversion it is now possible for the 964 to idle properly - something that Bosch were unable to get right.
Lastly and probably the most important is the programing of the Motec. This is absolutely critical but when done by an expert like Colin Belton at 930 Motorsport, 320 - 325bhp is not unusual on a standard 964RS.
Hope this helps.
The Motec is a "State of the Art" engine management unit and can be programmed to take effect of any engine modifications. With the aid of a fitting kit it can be connected directly into the 964 wiring loom.
Their conversion includes new high flow injectors which deliver significantly more fuel into the engine when required. This is the ONLY way to make an engine produce more power - more air and more fuel produces more power. - its that simple. Changing the chip merely give a bit more ignition advance and slightly richens up the mixture through the rev range.
The key to the Motec unit is that it injects precisely the right amount of fuel into the cylinder that the engine needs and at exactly the right time.
I heard two Motec cars (one 964RS and a 993RS) at Branham Park last weekend and not only did they sound fantastic but the owners were really praising their results, power gains and improved fuel economy. Also with the Motec conversion it is now possible for the 964 to idle properly - something that Bosch were unable to get right.
Lastly and probably the most important is the programing of the Motec. This is absolutely critical but when done by an expert like Colin Belton at 930 Motorsport, 320 - 325bhp is not unusual on a standard 964RS.
Hope this helps.
07-24-2002, 10:25 AM
#28
[quote]Originally posted by tron:
[QB]Their conversion includes new high flow injectors which deliver significantly more fuel into the engine when required. This is the ONLY way to make an engine produce more power - more air and more fuel produces more power. - its that simple. Changing the chip merely give a bit more ignition advance and slightly richens up the mixture through the rev range.[QB]<hr></blockquote>
Tron
I totally agree with you on the Motec conversion. I have said before that this is a proven solution. Expensive, but proven. I may look to do this myself in the future.
My question is: how did Tony end up with 250rwhp?
2 additional points:
1. 930 actually originally installed just the Motec via the adapter and took the car to the rolling road. They got around 25hp gain. They were disappointed with this and by trial and error developed the current kit which gives 280-285 rwhp. Anyway, if the bigger injectors are the only way to get gains, how did the Motec ECU create gains of 25hp?
2. You sound like a commercial for 930. This is slightly worrying when you couple that with sounding like a Motec salesman at the same time: 'what Motec does is to inject the precise'....etc
What is your point regarding the AMD MAF and chip?
[QB]Their conversion includes new high flow injectors which deliver significantly more fuel into the engine when required. This is the ONLY way to make an engine produce more power - more air and more fuel produces more power. - its that simple. Changing the chip merely give a bit more ignition advance and slightly richens up the mixture through the rev range.[QB]<hr></blockquote>
Tron
I totally agree with you on the Motec conversion. I have said before that this is a proven solution. Expensive, but proven. I may look to do this myself in the future.
My question is: how did Tony end up with 250rwhp?
2 additional points:
1. 930 actually originally installed just the Motec via the adapter and took the car to the rolling road. They got around 25hp gain. They were disappointed with this and by trial and error developed the current kit which gives 280-285 rwhp. Anyway, if the bigger injectors are the only way to get gains, how did the Motec ECU create gains of 25hp?
2. You sound like a commercial for 930. This is slightly worrying when you couple that with sounding like a Motec salesman at the same time: 'what Motec does is to inject the precise'....etc
What is your point regarding the AMD MAF and chip?
07-24-2002, 10:42 AM
#29
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[quote]Originally posted by Christer:
<strong>
Anyway, if the bigger injectors are the only way to get gains, how did the Motec ECU create gains of 25hp?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
More fuel + more air == more power. The standard size injectors are good for up to about 300bhp. 930 Motorsport fit the next size up on their kit to get about 325bhp with Motec + cat bypass + cup pipe. Nice but it costs about £4000 +VAT - ouch! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
<strong>
Anyway, if the bigger injectors are the only way to get gains, how did the Motec ECU create gains of 25hp?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
More fuel + more air == more power. The standard size injectors are good for up to about 300bhp. 930 Motorsport fit the next size up on their kit to get about 325bhp with Motec + cat bypass + cup pipe. Nice but it costs about £4000 +VAT - ouch! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
07-24-2002, 11:03 AM
#30
Well, I am getting confused by the 'selective' answering of questions and random point-making.
Having done quite a bit of research on upgrades I am happy that Tony provided some actual data on one of the conversions we up until now really knew nothing about.
Having done quite a bit of research on upgrades I am happy that Tony provided some actual data on one of the conversions we up until now really knew nothing about.