Mr. C4

Hi,

I'm off to the tire dealer tomorrow to fit Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires to my C4. As many of you might know, I'm suffering from traditional C4 understeer and I'm considering 225/45/17 up front and standard 255/40/17 at the rear. My concern is that the grippy Cup tire might be too much with 225 up front. What do you think, has anyone tried?

Ciao,

Johannes E.

joey bagadonuts

You are going to slaughter them at your next autocross!

I ran the Kumho Victoracers in 225 & 255 sizes for the first time at an autocross on Sunday. I took second in class, and yes, the champ was running on Hoosiers. Prior to this, I had only run on street tires in the same sizes--what a difference! I also have a thicker rear sway bar, strut brace and lowered car and, along with those tires, was able to produce very good results.

I believe the 225/255 sizes will reduce the understeer tendency and allow you to toss the car a bit more--but it's not too much grip. Also, be sure to dial in some negative camber and try trail braking to whip the end around quicker. Heavy throttle in slow, tight turns will still bring out the understeer so play with that to learn the breaking point.

The only concern is high-speed turns where you may experience a bit more looseness than before, but for autocrossing, this setup should be fine.

I've heard geat things about the Sport Cups and I'm sure you'll make it two in a row at your next competition. Good luck!

George Stevens

Mr C4

cracking choice of tyre, these are really good, but I would leave the fronts at 205/50 you will provoke more roll oversteer on long fast bends, 205's will give you much more driver feedback.

One of the best 911's I have ever driven was a '73 RS with standard rubber 175's at the front and 215's at the back on 15" rims, there is the same power to weight as a 964 RS and there was no shortage of grip just the best steering feel ever............christ I want one!!!!!!

peter_964rs

I recently fitted these tyres for a track day at Donington. Unfortunately, due to a combination of circumstances, I dodn't use them in the dry for very long.

However, I'm impressed. Some comments below:

1. They cured some understeer and increased turn-in bite substantially. This is with 225 Michi Cup Sports versus 205 Goodyear F1s.
2. Much more grip when hot. They need to be hot, though. Which implies track work.
3. OK in the wet, which is a big improvement over the Pirelli Type C. Progressive, which I like!
4. In some indescribable way the car feels better with them on.

Overall, I'm pleased I was forced into buying them (several punctures in quick succession, only available desirable tyre in stock).

However, if you don't go on track a regular high-performance tyre might be a better bet. And if you're predominantly using the car on track you may get even more grip out of Dunlop Formula R's (if they're available in the right size) or something from Yokohama or elsewhere.

joey bagadonuts

Here are some comments about the Sport Cups from Manny Alban, a fellow Rennlister who competes in PCA Club Racing:
[quote] Also, the Sport Cups are great for autocrossing. Got overall FTD at one autocross and class win/4th fastest overall at another. Just pump in about 5lbs more air, cold, then you would at the track, and they'll heat up plenty quick.

I'm on my 12th track day, 38th heat cycle, and I still have lots of tread left. Bought a second set for this weekend's race (probably a psychological thing, but I wanted fresh rubber). At this rate, I may have all the tires I need for the rest of this year and next. I tried the Sport Cups in the rain (they were 9 events old) and quite frankly, they were scary. I much preferred my Kuhmos (when they were brand new) for the rain. I have a set of Toyo RA-1's, but of course, when I put them on, the rain stopped and the track tried and I was the only moron on the track with rain tires
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Jeff Curtis

With every track event I attend, it seems that the word on the street is that the Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are the ticket, the bomb...the "beliz-buha".

Yes, I witness Manny Alban and Charles Price using them at the PCA/Grand-Am Cup race three weekends ago, Charles took first and Manny was very close behind. They use 225s and 255s, but Charles has them on 18" wheels...so there might be a difference?

I have a few sets of Hoosiers in stock, will use them up and certainly give the Sport Cups a try.

Also, Johannes, absolutely, use 225s up front and 255s in the rear - you can't go wrong...that's what I happen to be using now and like it better than the 275/245 combo I was using all Summer. 20mm more rubber isn't going to mess up the balance of the car, it will assist in curing the inherent understeer of our 3100lb babies.

GT9111

Will adding 225 17" wheels in the front rub fenders and inner wheelwell?

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong>Will adding 225 17" wheels in the front rub fenders and inner wheelwell?</strong><hr></blockquote>

At a minimum, you'll need to upgrade your steering stop washer to the version that was put into production in 1992 to allow 17" wheels. It's 10mm thick (versus the earlier 6mm thick part), part number 964.347.325.02. There may also be some body modification required - there was a dealer bulletin on this.

Mr. C4

Hi!

Just got back home and I would like to report bak on the Cup's that are fitted now. Man are they great!!!! 225/45/17 up front and rear 255/40/17 and there is just no end to how much grip they provide when having reached operating temp (10 min drive) The typical C4 understeer is heavily reduced and the turn in is just perfect. In comparison to the P Zero C that I used to run on my 968 CS, these are superior in stickyness.

Still need bigger swaybar at the rear!

Ciao,

Johannes E.

Jeff Curtis

Yup, my Student this weekend had an '02 M3, with the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires...man, that thing STUCK like glue! ...on 18" wheels too.

The car is fast as hell anyway, 340HP he told me - my GOD, it flew...but how much it stuck just amazed me.

It made me feel inferior when I got back out there on my Hoosiers...good thing I know the course and where to sliiiiiiiide.

Mr. C4

Volks,

I have done about 300km in on the road by now with the Cup's and they just amaze me everytime I enter a roundabout, sweeping flyover or twisty road section. THEY JUST STICK to the road! I'm starting to think that the tires provide more grip than the chassi can handle!? Tire pressure recommended by the tires shop was 31 front and 38 rear cold and it seems to be absolute spot on.

We will have another auto X on the 18th Oct. and I'm confident I'll kick some butt. Previous auto X event overall results were:

1. Porsche 996 Turbo 56.431 sec.
2. Mitsubishi Evo 6 58.342
3. Caterham 58.843
4. Caterham 60.310
5. Porsche 996 Turbo 61.301
6. (myself) Porsche 964 C4 61.450

I reckon I'll be able to slide in to the top four if all goes well. I'll keep you posted.

Ciao,

Johannes E. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Manny Alban

Hi gang,
Here's some more data for the Cups. I bought my second set for the race. My first set had 41 heat cycles and plenty of tread left. I turned a 1:27.8 on the 'old' Michelins. I switched to the new Michelins and on the third heat cycle, which was the feature race, I turned a 1:26.6. I was asked all weekend if I thought they were better than Hoosiers. I said 'no', they are equal in my opinion, however, unlike Hoosiers, I have yet to have my Cups go away on me. I found a very nice tire pressure combo that worked for me. 30.5 front and 34 rear. All pressures hot. Also, I was asked if I changed my setup for the Michelins and the answer is 'no'. I still have the car setup for Hoosier and the extra camber doesn't seem to affect the Cups at all.

On a personal note, I had probably my best race ever. I finished 2nd in class (F). I went from 21st overall to 8th in 20 laps and was never so happy to see the checkered flag

joey bagadonuts

Congrats, Manny! While it might seem immodest, I want people to share their successes. Although the Tire Rack has a wonderful Cust. Svc. team, I'd much rather get my tire advice from a successful Club Racer who's actually "been there."
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Jeff Curtis

Manny, you say 30.5 front and 34 rear - HOT??

Okay, what did you start out with?? ...dunno why I would want to know that?

Manny Alban

I think it was 24 front and 25 rear, but I'm not sure. The tech from Michelin that was at the VIR race said that some teams were having success with a 4lb difference front to rear. I haven't gone that far yet, but he may be onto something.