Engine upgrades...what to do with £6k
12-12-2002, 01:40 PM
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Engine upgrades...what to do with £6k
I have a '92 C2 tip with 94k miles & some small oil leaks. With a hypothetical £6k-ish budget ($9.5k US or Euro) for engine overhaul/upgrade. Where do I spend it??
Option 1: trade in '92 C2 tip & buy 6-speed 993 with dry engine to get performance enhancement from better ratios and no oil leaks
2: Engine out, top end job, Motec & reseal
3: Engine out, lightweight/stronger innards to reduce MOI of the spinning bits
4: engine our,top end & supercharge.
Basically, I want to either 'invest' in this car now that it is approaching 100k miles (I don't mean invest to see a financial return - I mean invest in my own happiness re: driving!)or 'upgrade' (and I use the term looseley) to a six-speed.
My jury is still out - I prefer the slimmer lines of the 964 (no offence to 993 lovers - hey they are all lovely looking cars!), but the bigger brakes ( I think!?), multi-link suspension & six speeds of a 993 C2 are appealing.
Opinions welcome!
Option 1: trade in '92 C2 tip & buy 6-speed 993 with dry engine to get performance enhancement from better ratios and no oil leaks
2: Engine out, top end job, Motec & reseal
3: Engine out, lightweight/stronger innards to reduce MOI of the spinning bits
4: engine our,top end & supercharge.
Basically, I want to either 'invest' in this car now that it is approaching 100k miles (I don't mean invest to see a financial return - I mean invest in my own happiness re: driving!)or 'upgrade' (and I use the term looseley) to a six-speed.
My jury is still out - I prefer the slimmer lines of the 964 (no offence to 993 lovers - hey they are all lovely looking cars!), but the bigger brakes ( I think!?), multi-link suspension & six speeds of a 993 C2 are appealing.
Opinions welcome!
12-12-2002, 02:03 PM
#2
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John,
Nothing like a compound/complex set of questions!!
If you like what you have now, my two cents would be to drop the engine, reseal it, perhaps a top end rebuild, certainly replace the piston rod bolts with Raceware or ARP while the heads are off.
If you want to supercharge, sell the C2 and buy a Turbo. Your engine wasn't designed to be supercharged, although of course some people do it.
The 993 front rotors are 4mm thicker and slightly larger diameter, and the caliper has slightly bigger pistons, with larger brake pads. If that's really attractive, you can install the rotors and calipers on your 964. Or you could also install the Carrera RS brakes, which use a larger rotor and require 17" wheels.
If a six speed manual transmission is attractive, install one! You could sell your existing engine/tranny combination and buy a 993 engine/tranny and install that in your existing shell. Randall could fill you in on some of the details. You pick up greater hp along with the 6 speed transmission. Then you'd have a "Q" ship!! If you track your 964 with a 993 engine, have the hydraulic lifters exchanged for the manual variety.
Nothing like a compound/complex set of questions!!
If you like what you have now, my two cents would be to drop the engine, reseal it, perhaps a top end rebuild, certainly replace the piston rod bolts with Raceware or ARP while the heads are off.
If you want to supercharge, sell the C2 and buy a Turbo. Your engine wasn't designed to be supercharged, although of course some people do it.
The 993 front rotors are 4mm thicker and slightly larger diameter, and the caliper has slightly bigger pistons, with larger brake pads. If that's really attractive, you can install the rotors and calipers on your 964. Or you could also install the Carrera RS brakes, which use a larger rotor and require 17" wheels.
If a six speed manual transmission is attractive, install one! You could sell your existing engine/tranny combination and buy a 993 engine/tranny and install that in your existing shell. Randall could fill you in on some of the details. You pick up greater hp along with the 6 speed transmission. Then you'd have a "Q" ship!! If you track your 964 with a 993 engine, have the hydraulic lifters exchanged for the manual variety.
12-12-2002, 02:42 PM
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Here's some sage advice offered in a recent thread:
[quote] I would not waste money on unnecessary upgrades on your 964 (ie 4 pot calipers, headers, chips etc etc) or waste money on a different, depreciating car aka 996. Keep your curent 964. Invest the money you would have wasted in some property instead (ie take out a commercial mortgage on a knackered shoebox in one on London's up & coming areas, do it up & let it OR sell it to realise capital & buy another etc) ansd in ten years time sell the investment property you have acquired via your diligent investment <hr></blockquote>Posted by some chap named John from Leeds. Oops!
[quote] I would not waste money on unnecessary upgrades on your 964 (ie 4 pot calipers, headers, chips etc etc) or waste money on a different, depreciating car aka 996. Keep your curent 964. Invest the money you would have wasted in some property instead (ie take out a commercial mortgage on a knackered shoebox in one on London's up & coming areas, do it up & let it OR sell it to realise capital & buy another etc) ansd in ten years time sell the investment property you have acquired via your diligent investment <hr></blockquote>Posted by some chap named John from Leeds. Oops!
12-12-2002, 06:17 PM
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do the engine upgrade, motec or hotfilm, should be within budget - I know you've been researching this. If you go 993 you will need to spend at least an extra 10k sterling or 15k dollars, assuming you can get a good price for the 964. I think you will want varioram and 272 bhp in the 993 to make the power difference to your current car, however you could target 300 bhp for the 964 power upgrade. If you got the urge for a newer better 911 and a step change on what you've got,start stacking the money up, they remain expensive cars when new !!
12-12-2002, 06:38 PM
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[quote]<strong>you could target 300 bhp for the 964 power upgrade. </strong><hr></blockquote>
300 hp, while possible, will not be cheap. Consider what Porsche did to get a reliable 300 hp for the RS 3.8: new crankcase, pistons, cylinders, rockers, dme, exhaust, hot film air intake, crank vibration dampers, air filter, valves, extra oil cooler, and intake manifold with individual throttle flaps, not to mention the updated brakes (Turbo front, RS rear), suspension (springs, shocks/struts, rear stabilizer, shock tower cross brace) and body aerodynamics to handle the extra power.
300 hp, while possible, will not be cheap. Consider what Porsche did to get a reliable 300 hp for the RS 3.8: new crankcase, pistons, cylinders, rockers, dme, exhaust, hot film air intake, crank vibration dampers, air filter, valves, extra oil cooler, and intake manifold with individual throttle flaps, not to mention the updated brakes (Turbo front, RS rear), suspension (springs, shocks/struts, rear stabilizer, shock tower cross brace) and body aerodynamics to handle the extra power.
12-12-2002, 07:03 PM
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John
I suspect you must first deceide wether you really want a tip or a manual gearbox.
If you really prefer the tip then I guess an overhaul of your current engine with some bolt on parts would be my choice and perhaps yours.
If you want more performance then really a stock manual 964/993 will give more performance than your tip and your £6k is probably best spent changing cars. Admitedly much of the money will be wasted in the dealer margin but the oil leaks will be his problem.
If you are considering futher modification a 964 is easier and cheaper to improve than a 993.
Brakes - big reds all round £2.5k
Suspension - 993 stock suspension is still too soft and an upgrade would inevitably be desirable.
6 speeds 911 don`t really lack torque !
I suspect you must first deceide wether you really want a tip or a manual gearbox.
If you really prefer the tip then I guess an overhaul of your current engine with some bolt on parts would be my choice and perhaps yours.
If you want more performance then really a stock manual 964/993 will give more performance than your tip and your £6k is probably best spent changing cars. Admitedly much of the money will be wasted in the dealer margin but the oil leaks will be his problem.
If you are considering futher modification a 964 is easier and cheaper to improve than a 993.
Brakes - big reds all round £2.5k
Suspension - 993 stock suspension is still too soft and an upgrade would inevitably be desirable.
6 speeds 911 don`t really lack torque !
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12-13-2002, 07:28 AM
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John,
Choose the car you like better. If it where me I would get a 993, simply because I prefer the lines.
Having said that, buying/selling a car is always a hassle and if you prefer the looks of the 964 and are happy with your car I'd invest the money in it and keep it longer.
Choose the car you like better. If it where me I would get a 993, simply because I prefer the lines.
Having said that, buying/selling a car is always a hassle and if you prefer the looks of the 964 and are happy with your car I'd invest the money in it and keep it longer.
12-13-2002, 09:14 AM
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Firstly, to the funny guys
Joey: that is sage advice, no doubt the words of some oracle or another
Irishdriver: touche!! I deserved that one!
Bill & others: as the varying advice shows - its a tough decision. I don't know which way I'll go - I prefer the looks of the 964, and I really enjoy the tip I have - I guess I need to borrow a 6-speed for a couple of days & see if I could live with it. If yes, then I need to decide if it is much better than what I have.
I suspect it will be different, rather than better.
Joey: that is sage advice, no doubt the words of some oracle or another
Irishdriver: touche!!
I deserved that one!Bill & others: as the varying advice shows - its a tough decision. I don't know which way I'll go - I prefer the looks of the 964, and I really enjoy the tip I have - I guess I need to borrow a 6-speed for a couple of days & see if I could live with it. If yes, then I need to decide if it is much better than what I have.
I suspect it will be different, rather than better.
12-13-2002, 10:15 AM
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Hi John,
For me, I would keep the Tip (definitely would not consider changing to manual), sort the leaks out (approx. £1K) and enjoy!!
Hang on to you cash for the 996's to depreciate a lot more and pick one of those up.
Have you read the "911 & Porsche World" mag, Michael has done plenty serious mods to his 964 that may interest you.
Cheers
Gary '91 C2 Tip
For me, I would keep the Tip (definitely would not consider changing to manual), sort the leaks out (approx. £1K) and enjoy!!
Hang on to you cash for the 996's to depreciate a lot more and pick one of those up.
Have you read the "911 & Porsche World" mag, Michael has done plenty serious mods to his 964 that may interest you.
Cheers
Gary '91 C2 Tip
12-13-2002, 11:36 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
Ok, you're coming up to the point where if you're following the service book and you're paying someone to do the work one of the next services is going to be expensive. (Porsche replace the distributor here not just the belt !!)
Given that a good chunk of you money will dissappear on this I think you're remaining options are:
new chips - which I don't recommend, the factory compromise is pretty good.
Bigger pistons and cylinders (2750 euro at <a href="http://www.fvd.de)" target="_blank">www.fvd.de)</a> which is a reasonable way to go.
airbox mods, cup exhaust (150-200 euro) - can't remember if you've done this but it's cheap !!
As fo the leaky engine - mine doesn't leak but it covered itself in oil due to the oil tank/filler cap blowing off at high pressure - this makes a wonderfull mess of your engine and you'll never get the underside fully clean. My neighbour has a '90 C4 which is clean and dry with 160,000km. So maybe a gasket kit is a good investment but the mechanic is more important !!!!
Keep in mind there is a Porsche club championship winning car on sale here (LHD of course) for 43 or 44 keuro which has 300bhp plus, a 993 gearbox, sorted suspension, etc., etc. This represents a hell of a drop on the cost of preparing the car.
Non standard tuning gives you a great drive but a lower value in the long run. People, in general, prefer to buy original cars.
...just my two cents
Irishdriver
P.S. OK we'll drop the Skis - I just couldn't resist it - Thank you for being gracious !!!
Given that a good chunk of you money will dissappear on this I think you're remaining options are:
new chips - which I don't recommend, the factory compromise is pretty good.
Bigger pistons and cylinders (2750 euro at <a href="http://www.fvd.de)" target="_blank">www.fvd.de)</a> which is a reasonable way to go.
airbox mods, cup exhaust (150-200 euro) - can't remember if you've done this but it's cheap !!
As fo the leaky engine - mine doesn't leak but it covered itself in oil due to the oil tank/filler cap blowing off at high pressure - this makes a wonderfull mess of your engine and you'll never get the underside fully clean. My neighbour has a '90 C4 which is clean and dry with 160,000km. So maybe a gasket kit is a good investment but the mechanic is more important !!!!
Keep in mind there is a Porsche club championship winning car on sale here (LHD of course) for 43 or 44 keuro which has 300bhp plus, a 993 gearbox, sorted suspension, etc., etc. This represents a hell of a drop on the cost of preparing the car.
Non standard tuning gives you a great drive but a lower value in the long run. People, in general, prefer to buy original cars.
...just my two cents
Irishdriver
P.S. OK we'll drop the Skis - I just couldn't resist it - Thank you for being gracious !!!
12-13-2002, 02:43 PM
#12
John
If your oil leaks aren't bad, why not spend some money on upgrading non-engine items such as suspension (
sorry)?
Or;
As we all know, a lot of the time our engines do not need top-end rebuilds - what is your oil consumption like? If well within tolerances, why not Motec now anyway and save the oil leaks for another day? Yes, the extra power generated may make things a bit worse - but then again it may not. You still have to speand the money.
With 6k, I think you will get the topend done and the tranny overhauled, but yoiu will not have too much change left over for much upgrading anyway.
As always decide what you want to achieve first and then decide.
Personally, I have now pretty much decided to get the H&R coilovers with RS sways from Gert (subject to Xmas special price...?), LSD and possibly the GHL kit as curently advertised. This alone will cost 6k easy and I haven't touched the engine or brakes.
Choices, choices, choices. Actually, apologies for bringing it up earlier but what is happening on the suspension front? Perhaps separate thread if any news?
Take care
If your oil leaks aren't bad, why not spend some money on upgrading non-engine items such as suspension (
sorry)?Or;
As we all know, a lot of the time our engines do not need top-end rebuilds - what is your oil consumption like? If well within tolerances, why not Motec now anyway and save the oil leaks for another day? Yes, the extra power generated may make things a bit worse - but then again it may not. You still have to speand the money.
With 6k, I think you will get the topend done and the tranny overhauled, but yoiu will not have too much change left over for much upgrading anyway.
As always decide what you want to achieve first and then decide.
Personally, I have now pretty much decided to get the H&R coilovers with RS sways from Gert (subject to Xmas special price...?), LSD and possibly the GHL kit as curently advertised. This alone will cost 6k easy and I haven't touched the engine or brakes.
Choices, choices, choices. Actually, apologies for bringing it up earlier but what is happening on the suspension front? Perhaps separate thread if any news?
Take care
12-13-2002, 03:33 PM
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My advice - go with the 993 six speed. Check Jeff's thread on "Prices falling - Don't worry"
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003187" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003187</a>
The cash you would dump in your car will not increase the value much, if at all.
Get your car detailed and wait for a good (fair) price, then take your time finding the correct 993. Or - for the 964 lovers among us - buy an RS.
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003187" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003187</a>
The cash you would dump in your car will not increase the value much, if at all.
Get your car detailed and wait for a good (fair) price, then take your time finding the correct 993. Or - for the 964 lovers among us - buy an RS.
12-14-2002, 06:49 AM
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Isn't it fun (hypothetically) spending someone else's money!
If it were me I'd go 964 RS, for RSing about in, and keep the MB for comfy cruising! That way you are getting Porsche-designed/implemented performance upgrade with 'added lightness' - AND making an investment, no shoebox necessary.
(PS Just inherited a Grey '84 Merc saloon with a house purchase. Don't know whether 230 or 280 etc yet. Planning to let it take the daily driving chores to keep the 964 special. Are they nice to drive, in a relaxing sort of way?)
If it were me I'd go 964 RS, for RSing about in, and keep the MB for comfy cruising! That way you are getting Porsche-designed/implemented performance upgrade with 'added lightness' - AND making an investment, no shoebox necessary.
(PS Just inherited a Grey '84 Merc saloon with a house purchase. Don't know whether 230 or 280 etc yet. Planning to let it take the daily driving chores to keep the 964 special. Are they nice to drive, in a relaxing sort of way?)
12-17-2002, 12:48 PM
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Johnny
yes, the MErc is a lovely ride. I haven't used mine for a year - I just enjoy the 964 too much - I'm too young to cruise in the MErc!!
Christer - suspension bits are now in stock I am going for.....
....drumroll please.....
Bilstein HD & Gemballa springs all round.
Will let you know how they feel.
Lastly
oil; consumption is inside limits I've used about 5 litres in 10,000 miles (though I have had a service in between, so its hard to tell exactly).
If I sell, it will be for a Silver 993 6 speed.
If I keep it will be Motec or s/charger.
yes, the MErc is a lovely ride. I haven't used mine for a year - I just enjoy the 964 too much - I'm too young to cruise in the MErc!!
Christer - suspension bits are now in stock I am going for.....
....drumroll please.....
Bilstein HD & Gemballa springs all round.
Will let you know how they feel.
Lastly
oil; consumption is inside limits I've used about 5 litres in 10,000 miles (though I have had a service in between, so its hard to tell exactly).
If I sell, it will be for a Silver 993 6 speed.
If I keep it will be Motec or s/charger.