Jeff Curtis

As I have begun to venture into the market for buying a pair of Racing seats for my 964...I have three main issues that come to mind.

1) What type of adjustable rail/slider mechanism are people using? I would like to think that I can mount a Momo or Sparco 2000 to that manufacturers particular side rails and then to Porsche factory sliders (for non-electric seats). My friend installed a pair of Momo racing seats in his 944T using all Momo hardware and it seems to raise the seat up...plus it looks just plain damned UGLY! (the slider mechanism) I am 6ft tall and already have problems with clearance (while wearing a helmet) in a sunroof coupe.

***What are you guys using out there?***

2) How do you mount your belt (right side for Driver, left side for Passenger towards center of vehicle) now that you don't have the factory seats that have the threaded mount? Are you drilling into the tunnel and using big washers...or is there some way to drill the side mounts for these racing seats and bolt that part of the harness to there, if so, is this safe -and- legal for PCA guidelines??

3) As I know many of you out there are incredibly ingenious, how are you mounting -or- what have you fabricated to mount the 5th (sub) strap?? I have heard of a flat piece of metal lodged underneath the front of the sliders works well...but I am tall, and don't want to raise up the seat whatsoever!

So...without further adieu, I would like to know what you guys have done. Keep in mind I'm looking for answers from the people that have changed out their factory seats to racing seats as to have the benefit of 5 point harnesses.

Bill Gregory

Jeff,

I'm going to put SRD's in over the winter. I saw one 964 where a 6'3"+ person actually put in an aluminum bar to raise the seats a bit! On the belt attachment, Brey Krause offers an attachment that bolts on the side which you clip your belts to. On the SRD's you do have to take off the inboard adjusting ****.

Let us know what you find out about the sub-hole mounting. I'll be using 5 point harnesses too.

Have you cut a piece of wood for the drivers floorboard yet?

JC in NY

There is only one way to setup your safety equipment - the right way. The right way is according to the manufacturers guidelines. If you do not do it the right way you are compromising the safety of the installation. There are no exceptions. If you can't do it the right way then stick with your factory seats and belt - they are safer than racing equipment mounted incorrectly.

I get a kick out of hearing how people explain that their way is OK even though the manual clearly shows that it is not acceptable.

First, get a rollbar or rollcage.

1. Consider NOT using sliders. Just use the fixed sidemounts. Sliders are a luxury item that do not belong in a proper racing seat setup. Since you should be using a back brace anyway the slider is not practical.

2&3. The harness must be mounted as follows, any other way is not correct by any manufacturers standards. If unsure read the manual that come with the harness.

a) Shoulder harness get wrapped around the rollbar horizontal tube behind the seats. The backbrace also gets mounted here and fixed to the seats.

b) Lap harness gets fixed to a hardpoint on the chassis, not to the seat or any part of the seat mounts. Hardpoints can be welded into the tunnel area or sills or bolted using approved eyebolts. If bolted you must back up with approved washers. PCA clubrace does not allow shoulder harness bolted to sidemount even though some Cup cars are delivered from Porsche this way.

c) Substrap must be fixed to chassis hardpoint below the seat (limit angle to 20 degrees fore/aft) and it must run through the seat, never over the front of it.

Carrera51

JC is right to suggest a rollbar or rollcage if the car is going to be tracked, and you should never comprise or jerry rig safety equipment.

Jeff, are you going to install a roll bar or just a harness guide bar? There was an interesting thread on the PCA Potomac website a while back about whether or not it is safe to use 5 point harnesses in a car without a roll bar. In the event of a rollover, if the driver is strapped in with a 5 point harness and the car does not have a roll bar, he will be in an upright position when the car rolls and could sustain a serious injury.

The problem is, people who only do a few DE's a year, and don't plan on club racing, don't want to chop of their interior in order to install a roll bar.

I club race therfore my 911 has a full cage, seat brace, and belts installed per PCA club racing rules.

My dad drives his 964 in DEs only. He put in a more supportive sport seat. He uses harnesses and a harness bar. His shoulder belts are archored to eye bolts that are screwed into the places where the rear lap belts connect (those were removed) which is fine for him because he doesn't drive on the ragged edge and won't be turning his car into a race car any time soon. Not sure how his lap and sub belts are connected exactly, but I know they are not just bolted to the seat.

Bill Gregory

In a 964, as well as other model Porsche's, you can install a DAS rollbar (currently 20% off thru 12/5 at Performance Products sale), which is a bolt-in solution. It doesn't rip the interior apart (except during the install when you have to temporarily remove the side rear upholstery quarter panels - and you do put them back). You do have to remove the rear seatbacks, as that's the rear attachment point.

The DAS bar is valid for PCA club racing where a rollbar is required - I confirmed that with Tom Charlesworth.

Cupcar

Make sure you sit in whatever seats you buy and don't find out the hard way that you don't fit like I did with a Recaro SPG seat. You also want to see the hardware in person, the stuff sent to me from Recaro was ugly, raised the seat arbout 3 inches and was heavy.
I finally put Euro RS seats in my 964 which are similar to 964 Speedster seats but have cut out for harness in floor of seat and different padding. You may want to look at a 964 Speedster factory seat installation. The seats are Recaro and the aluminum hardware mounts as low as possible and still retains slider adjustment. With some or no modification the Speedster factory hardware may be used for racing Recaro or other brand seats

Bill Gregory

What is "the manual"? PCA Club Race guidelines? SCCA guidelines? HSR? Grand Am? I'd suggest there are generally accepted safety equipment practices that people can find in the PCA and SCCA guidelines, as well as for other racing series. PCA Club Racing guidelines are at http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/ruleinfo.htm. Further, you should consult whoever you'll be driving with to determine if there are any minimum requirements your Porsche needs to meet in order to run. For example, in some regions, all Porsche's must have fire extinguishers, mounted metal-to-metal.

JC in NY

No Bill, sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean any of those rulesbooks for racing. I meant the manuals that are provided with the safety equipment.

As an example, take the sub belt mounting. In there you will usually see a drawing of an incorrect sub belt mounting showing the sub belt going over the front of a seat (not through a seat slot) and a giant red "X" through the photo and the words:

"INCORRECT INSTALLATION OF THIS SAFETY EQUIPMENT AS SHOWN CAN RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH."

That's what I meant by the "manuals".

You're right about racing rules, they do differ quite a bit. Many do not cover these issues in great detail, I think they assume one will mount the safety equipment according to the manufacturer's guidelines.

Jeff Curtis

First, let me clear a few things up...I've been in the DE/Racing venue for several years now. I have my rollbar plans "in the bag", just haven't decided on which one, but do know that it WILL have a horizontal bar to wrap the harnesses around.

Currently I use a 4-point harness setup and a Brey Kraus harness guide bar, the shoulder straps are mounted properly back to the rear lap belt mounting points with correct eyelets.

I have the factory 964 sport seats with the Brey Kraus harness mounts that allow you to "clip on" the lap belts...but these will NOT work with racing seats unless you bolt them onto the seat mounts...which JC says is illegal by PCA guidelines, this I did not know - so thanks for bringing that up JC.

It looks as if the only LEGAL (PCA Club Sport guidelines) way to mount the inboard lap belts is to drill a hole in the tunnel and bolt the eyelets in w/large (and approved) washers.

I guess the remaining mystery is who's mounting brackets to use so that the seat remains as low as the factory seats are currently. I may consider NOT using sliders as I plan to install/remove the seats when not at the track, as I do my wheels.

Is it legal to mount the sub strap on a piece of bar that runs between the two forward bolt holes that hold the seat down?

Bill, I had Recaro SRDs in my previous track car, they are great seats! What makes them even better is that they are VERY street friendly. But I will not be using them in this car, I want more of a racing/bucket/full support-type seat. Make sure you do order them with the hole for the fifth strap though, I declined and later regretted it.

I am considering the higher end Momo/Sparco seats...rigid back with hole for fifth strap.

Thanks for the responses, although it would be useful if I had more that are pertinent to my specific questions. I have full safety and correct installation of everything in mind, I am a DIY type as well.

Bill Gregory

Jeff,

You might take a look at the Kirkey aluminum road race seat, which is the newer seat they introduced a year or two ago (Ioport racing and Stable Engergies are two I know who sell it). I know several who use it for both DE and racing, and are pleased with it. Real easy to attach a seat back brace to, if you plan on that.

JC in NY

As far as PCA Club race rules, here they are:


"Five or six point 3" competition harnesses (with 2" sub belt), properly
mounted, are required. Harnesses cannot be mounted to seat or seat
rail. Mounting must be to the chassis backed by large diameter washers
or to the roll bar. No two harness straps can be attached to a single
mounting bolt. No Y-type shoulder harnesses are allowed. The angle of
the shoulder harness going back from the driverÕs shoulders cannot be
above nor exceed 40 degrees below the horizontal plane of the shoul-
ders. All seat belt straps shall be made of nylon or dacron polyester and
be SFI approved and dated. Strap material must be replaced every five
years but straps should be inspected regularly and replaced sooner if
needed. All cars are required to have a dedicated race seat with routing
for straps."

Jeff Curtis

Thanks for the seat suggestion Bill...I'm likely going to take a more expensive route, although I believe in function before form, form has it's place in a car as hot looking as a 964. So I feel the higher end Momos and Sparcos would be a better solution, after all, if I like the seat enough, it may have a permanent home in the car for the duration of ownership.

JC, thanks for the facts on the "regs", I haven't had a chance to comb over them lately.

I am still in search of specific advice for mounting rails/sliders and a favorite model of seat from the top 3 choices for Porschephiles, Recaro, Momo and Sparco...they need to accept the sub strap as well, so that takes a lot of hinge backed seats out of the picture.

Anatol

Hi,

I drive a Recaro RS race seat on Sparco rail etc hardware and this fits perfectly well.

The Recaro parts would have caused a totally unacceptable sitting position, too much tilted backwards and too high.

The Sparco rails, however, have a tendency to wear causing the seat to move under very high g-forces. This feels as if the car would let go but it is only the seat shifting in the rails, very annoying.

Furthermore, I use a Schroth 4-point harness attached to the rear seatbelt points and the standard driver seatbelt points. No problem with that.

And finally, I have just bought a Matter club rollbar with cross brace and a brace leading to the rear seatbelt fixing points on the gearbox tunnel.

Anatol
1991 C2

Jeff Curtis

Anatol, where did you find this rollbar and do you have any pics or a website you can refer me to?

I have found one that sounds like that, made by Heist or something like that, in Germany. It attaches only to seat belt mounting points and has the bars that go back to the rear seat/tunnel.

Anatol

Jeff,
I bought the rollbar used from my mechanic. It is a Matter product and you can get these bars from FVD costing something like DM 1300 (approx USD 700).

For optimum safety, make sure you get the latest version where the bar does not rest on the bolts of the front passenger seatbelt but has an additional plate to put the stress on the chassis(even though you still screw it to the car via the seatbelt bolt).

Hope this helps,

Anatol