Can I still "flip" my Kumho's? Cord showing.
05-07-2003, 06:46 PM
#1
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Can I still "flip" my Kumho's? Cord showing.
After 17 heat cycles, I noticed that the shoulder of my left front Victoracer revealed a strand of steel which ran a third the way around the tire. I could post a pic if anyone is interested, but for those familiar with these tires, is it still possible to flip them?
I understand the liability concerns with answering such a question, so maybe I should put it this way: When would it be unsafe to reverse mount these tires? As mentioned, only a portion of one strand is showing and, of course, the inside shoulders of all four look new. In fact the tread blocks are still visible.
Just looking for a rule of thumb (besides, Get some camber!).
I understand the liability concerns with answering such a question, so maybe I should put it this way: When would it be unsafe to reverse mount these tires? As mentioned, only a portion of one strand is showing and, of course, the inside shoulders of all four look new. In fact the tread blocks are still visible.
Just looking for a rule of thumb (besides, Get some camber!).
05-07-2003, 07:52 PM
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Joey,
I have been flipping Kumho Victoracers for several years with no adverse effects. It is common for PCA drivers around here to do that. I understand that the Kumho people have no objection to flipping these tires, even though the sidewall continues to show a directional arrow. I suggest that you check with Kumho to satisfy yourself about this.
One day I inadvertently put my Michelin Sport Cups (directional street tires) on the wrong sides of the car -- must have been brain fade after a day at the track. The effect was VERY noticeable. At 50 mph the shimmy & shake made it quite obvious that something was wrong. When I swapped sides the problem went away.
No such problem with Kumho VictoRacers.
Strabo
BTW, driving with cords showing may be dangerous. PCA around here does not allow cars on the track if there is any cord showing.
I have been flipping Kumho Victoracers for several years with no adverse effects. It is common for PCA drivers around here to do that. I understand that the Kumho people have no objection to flipping these tires, even though the sidewall continues to show a directional arrow. I suggest that you check with Kumho to satisfy yourself about this.
One day I inadvertently put my Michelin Sport Cups (directional street tires) on the wrong sides of the car -- must have been brain fade after a day at the track. The effect was VERY noticeable. At 50 mph the shimmy & shake made it quite obvious that something was wrong. When I swapped sides the problem went away.
No such problem with Kumho VictoRacers.
Strabo
BTW, driving with cords showing may be dangerous. PCA around here does not allow cars on the track if there is any cord showing.
05-07-2003, 11:14 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
It's fine to flip Victoracers, but I wouldn't flip the ones you have b/c of the cord showing. I always retire tires once that happens. Just be sure to flip them earlier on your next set.
05-08-2003, 12:27 AM
#4
Race Car
Joey, I concur, but in your situation...being that you're not at the track right now...get a NEW one! 
I routinely rotate my fronts and rears at the track each day, so, on Saturday, after the last run session, I rotate them...that also gives me a chance to check them out.
If my left front is just starting to cord, ever so slightly, then I gladly put it on the right front, as this works out well at clockwise road courses...which, of course, incorporate mostly right turns.
I do keep an eye on the right front though, to see if the corded area is spreading at an accelerated rate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I "pitch" 'em when I get home...that's for sure.
SO, to make a long story short, you can "flip" Hoosiers, Yoko A032s and Kumhos, it was only the old "R-1" BF Goodrich tires that were A-symmetric...and it appears the new Michelins are as well, so I'm not sure if you can "flip" those.
...I'll have to double-check that one.
As a matter of fact, I routinely "flip" mine after two events, works out well for Hoosiers, as the outer edges tend to wear due to our "reasonable" neg. camber adjustments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I routinely rotate my fronts and rears at the track each day, so, on Saturday, after the last run session, I rotate them...that also gives me a chance to check them out.
If my left front is just starting to cord, ever so slightly, then I gladly put it on the right front, as this works out well at clockwise road courses...which, of course, incorporate mostly right turns.
I do keep an eye on the right front though, to see if the corded area is spreading at an accelerated rate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I "pitch" 'em when I get home...that's for sure.
SO, to make a long story short, you can "flip" Hoosiers, Yoko A032s and Kumhos, it was only the old "R-1" BF Goodrich tires that were A-symmetric...and it appears the new Michelins are as well, so I'm not sure if you can "flip" those.
...I'll have to double-check that one.
As a matter of fact, I routinely "flip" mine after two events, works out well for Hoosiers, as the outer edges tend to wear due to our "reasonable" neg. camber adjustments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
05-08-2003, 08:33 AM
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Thanks, all, for the advice. I guess it's time for a new set.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
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05-08-2003, 01:25 PM
#8
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Questions for you track junkies...
"Flipping" a unidirectional tire does NOT necessarily require the tire to be run in the reverse (wrong) rotational direction, does it?
For example if one "flips" tires on the wheels (reverses the rotational direction of the tire on the wheel) and then "rotates" the wheels from left side of the car to the right, then the worn outer edges are now on the inside but rotational direction stays the same (is not reversed), no?
Or is "Unidirectional" not the same as "Asymmetrical", so that when purchasing an asymmetrical tire one must specify left or right?
"Flipping" a unidirectional tire does NOT necessarily require the tire to be run in the reverse (wrong) rotational direction, does it?
For example if one "flips" tires on the wheels (reverses the rotational direction of the tire on the wheel) and then "rotates" the wheels from left side of the car to the right, then the worn outer edges are now on the inside but rotational direction stays the same (is not reversed), no?
Or is "Unidirectional" not the same as "Asymmetrical", so that when purchasing an asymmetrical tire one must specify left or right?
05-08-2003, 04:56 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Dave,
Directional and asymmetrical are two separate things, although they both relate to how you can flip and/or rotate tires.
A directional, NON-asymmetrical tire can be flipped on its rim then installed on the opposite side of the car.
A non-directional, asymmetrical tire cannot be flipped on its rim, but it can be installed on the opposite side of the car.
A directional, asymmetrical tire cannot be flipped on its rim nor can it be intalled on the opposite side of the car. You could rotate it front to back on the same side, assuming same size tires.
A non-directional, non-asymmetrical can be run any which way you want (flip it, move to opposite side of car, etc.).
Another consideration is whether the tire has an asymmetrical construction or merely asymmetrical tread design. An example is the Victoracer - the tread pattern is asymmetrical but the underlying construction is such that it can be flipped on its rim, which IMO makes it essentially not asymmetrical.
Anyone please feel free to correct me if I've mis-spoken.
Drew
92 C2
Directional and asymmetrical are two separate things, although they both relate to how you can flip and/or rotate tires.
A directional, NON-asymmetrical tire can be flipped on its rim then installed on the opposite side of the car.
A non-directional, asymmetrical tire cannot be flipped on its rim, but it can be installed on the opposite side of the car.
A directional, asymmetrical tire cannot be flipped on its rim nor can it be intalled on the opposite side of the car. You could rotate it front to back on the same side, assuming same size tires.
A non-directional, non-asymmetrical can be run any which way you want (flip it, move to opposite side of car, etc.).
Another consideration is whether the tire has an asymmetrical construction or merely asymmetrical tread design. An example is the Victoracer - the tread pattern is asymmetrical but the underlying construction is such that it can be flipped on its rim, which IMO makes it essentially not asymmetrical.
Anyone please feel free to correct me if I've mis-spoken.
Drew
92 C2
05-08-2003, 06:54 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Drew_K:
<strong>An example is the Victoracer - the tread pattern is asymmetrical but the underlying construction is such that it can be flipped on its rim, which IMO makes it essentially not asymmetrical.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Drew,
I was considering this route, i.e. removing and then remounting my tires so that the inside treads would now ride on the outside. I don't think that would've worked, however. First, I've got the cord problem which makes it risky to begin with, and second, I don't believe the tires were designed with such use in mind. In reading the Victoracer description from Tire Rack, it appears there is a distinct difference between inside and outside shoulder design.
I think the Victo's actually fall into this category:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">A non-directional, asymmetrical tire cannot be flipped on its rim, but it can be installed on the opposite side of the car. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm sure you could get a few more heat cycles by remounting your tires, but I just saw an M3 hit the wall at Road America's T5 because it blew out a worn Hoosier under heavy braking. I don't think the savings, here, are worth the risk--I'm sure you'd agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<strong>An example is the Victoracer - the tread pattern is asymmetrical but the underlying construction is such that it can be flipped on its rim, which IMO makes it essentially not asymmetrical.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Drew,
I was considering this route, i.e. removing and then remounting my tires so that the inside treads would now ride on the outside. I don't think that would've worked, however. First, I've got the cord problem which makes it risky to begin with, and second, I don't believe the tires were designed with such use in mind. In reading the Victoracer description from Tire Rack, it appears there is a distinct difference between inside and outside shoulder design.
I think the Victo's actually fall into this category:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">A non-directional, asymmetrical tire cannot be flipped on its rim, but it can be installed on the opposite side of the car. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm sure you could get a few more heat cycles by remounting your tires, but I just saw an M3 hit the wall at Road America's T5 because it blew out a worn Hoosier under heavy braking. I don't think the savings, here, are worth the risk--I'm sure you'd agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
05-08-2003, 08:04 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
Hey Joey,
The Victoracers used have an underlying asymmetrical construction, but they changed that a few years ago but didn't go to the expense of changing the molds, which is pretty costly. It really is okay to flip a Victoracer. I've confirmed this with TireRack before, and someone else on another board (Pelican?) actually contacted Kumho regarding this.
The different tread design is just a throwback to the older design. These days, I've heard that people mount the larger tread blocks towards the outside for dry racing and the small tread blocks to the outside for wet racing.
The Victoracers used have an underlying asymmetrical construction, but they changed that a few years ago but didn't go to the expense of changing the molds, which is pretty costly. It really is okay to flip a Victoracer. I've confirmed this with TireRack before, and someone else on another board (Pelican?) actually contacted Kumho regarding this.
The different tread design is just a throwback to the older design. These days, I've heard that people mount the larger tread blocks towards the outside for dry racing and the small tread blocks to the outside for wet racing.
05-09-2003, 01:21 AM
#13
Race Car
<img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
MY GOD DREW!! ...that, my friend was incredible!
Tell the truth, while writing your "thesis" on advantages/disadvantages, lies and half-truths Rd: Assymetrical -VS.- Directional...you had to stop a few times to realize what and the hell you, yourself were talking about?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Really, that was a damn good explanation...it blew MY mind!
Okay, back to particulars, while you were NOT supposed to "flip" the Victoracer, and you won't have to worry about those for much longer...they're NLA everywhere...the ECSTA does have a directional tread pattern.
Okay, here's where some controversy may lie, but I've tried it myself, with NO adverse reactions. <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" />
While the Kumho ECSTA is NOT assymetrical, it does have a directional tread that can be run reverse with NO issues - AFTER - you're worn a good 3/32 of an inch or so off them.
Make sense?? If not, here we go...the original tread blocks are molded at 8/32 of an inch...and unless you're a racer, it would be retarded to shave them down to 3/32 and watch all your $$$$$$ wind up on the floor. <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
After some wear, those treat blocks don't play into the picture as much as they used to, it's okay to reverse them...don't take it from me only, it has been suggested by many.
I suppose the next item up for debate will be HEAT CYLING?? ...good insurance or bad investment?
I say either pay to have it done or do it yourself...'nuff said.
MY GOD DREW!! ...that, my friend was incredible!
Tell the truth, while writing your "thesis" on advantages/disadvantages, lies and half-truths Rd: Assymetrical -VS.- Directional...you had to stop a few times to realize what and the hell you, yourself were talking about?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Really, that was a damn good explanation...it blew MY mind!
Okay, back to particulars, while you were NOT supposed to "flip" the Victoracer, and you won't have to worry about those for much longer...they're NLA everywhere...the ECSTA does have a directional tread pattern.
Okay, here's where some controversy may lie, but I've tried it myself, with NO adverse reactions. <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" />
While the Kumho ECSTA is NOT assymetrical, it does have a directional tread that can be run reverse with NO issues - AFTER - you're worn a good 3/32 of an inch or so off them.
Make sense?? If not, here we go...the original tread blocks are molded at 8/32 of an inch...and unless you're a racer, it would be retarded to shave them down to 3/32 and watch all your $$$$$$ wind up on the floor. <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
After some wear, those treat blocks don't play into the picture as much as they used to, it's okay to reverse them...don't take it from me only, it has been suggested by many.
I suppose the next item up for debate will be HEAT CYLING?? ...good insurance or bad investment?
I say either pay to have it done or do it yourself...'nuff said.
