Michael Delaney

I was just reading an article about the new Z06. They mentioned that it will be built with a dry sump system. They also mentiond that the latest generation Porsche has gone to wet sump to save money. Also the new Corvette has gotten smaller and lighter. Maybe Porsche should look to GM for some ideas???

Cupcar

Porsche does use dry sump, but only for the Turbo and GT engines. The 996/997 uses an "integrated dry sump" an advertising term used to describe the wet sump engine with scavenge pumps in the heads. The engine needs these because the oil in the camshaft boxes would otherwise not drain into the crankcase since it is at the same level. Porsche took this use of scavenge pumps as an opportunity to claim some kind of "dry sump" when the real principle of a dry sump should be to get as much oil out of the crankcase as possible. The crankcase in a 996/997 is the holding sump for the oil-hardly dry.

A true dry sump would have a scavenge pump in the crankcase as well (Like the Turbo GT1.GT2,GT3) to remove the oil there to a separate holding tank outside the engine.

What gets me here is that Porsche, the first to use a wet sump in production cars to my knowledge starting in the 1950's, is not only moving backward in producing what to me is a Sports Car, that is to say a car closer to a real racing car then a touring car, but is also being disingenuous in calling their move some kind of dry sump

At least the 964 has a true dry sump

Adrian

Oil tank outside engine = dry sump
Oil tank in engine = wet sump
Ciao,
Adrian.

Cupcar

chame01

affordable ideas, that is...

I think I may be able to afford a ZO6

not quite sure about that CGT..

Cupcar

No question the CGT has carbon fiber, forged magnesium, PCCB galore for $400K plus

Ceramic composite brakes though are not one of the highlights I would have cited though.

Take a look at the Chevy Z06 front caliper though. It is a 6 piston design with 6 individual pads so the through bolts can go through the caliper deeper to improve ridgidity. Clever design for Chevy money.....

Colin 90 C2

Indycam,
Wouldn't the fair comparison be the Z06 vs. Carrera. (dollars for dollars)
I love my 964, but with the rest of the world building high hp cars for low dollars, I don't think that Porsche should be resting on thier laurels.

I believe that my next move will be a Sube WRX, and then work it to the gills. For the same money as a used C4, you can get aout 100-150 more HP. I agree that the wow factor may not be there, but it's all about the speed.

Cupcar

Comparing a 3130 pound Corvette Z06 with:

-Aluminum frame
-Magnesium roof structure
-Magnesium cast front engine cradle
-Plastic body
-Carbon fiber fenders
-Floor of car done in Carbon fiber/Balsa wood composite
-Aluminum transmission has oil/water cooler which circulates the cooled gearbox oil in an oil/oil cooler to cool the differential oil
-19X12 inch rear wheels with 325 tires
-18X10 front wheels with 275 tires
-Front 6 piston brakes have 6 individual pads in each caliper, 14 inch rotors
-Rear 4 piston brakes have 13.4 inch rotors
-Aluminum suspension with fiberglass springs
-Aluminum V8 with Titanium rods and intake valves, 7200 RPM rev limit, 7208 cc and makes 500 HP @ 6200 rpm, 475 lb-ft torque at 4800 rpm- 385 lb-ft of torque are available at 1600 rpm

0 to 60=3.8 seconds
0 to 100=7.7 seconds
11.7 second 127 mph quarter mile

-Price $65K

To an all steel bodied, aluminum suspension, aluminum 3600 cc engine and gearbox, 3075 pound, 325 HP, 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, 0- 100 in 11 seconds 911 for $69,300 !!!!

Heresy I say

chris walrod

The main reason for multiple pads is more leading edges, which do a lot of the work. Also reduces pad 'float', so to speak.

The Z06 is improving, especially in the braking dept. as the C-5 brakes pretty much suck. C-5 calipers, when used in a track environment, actually deform and flair out. Worst part is, they stay deformed and at this point, are junk. Then again, new C-5 calipers at the dealer cost less than my brake pads for the 993

Cupcar

Note that it looks like the front calipers are designed so that 8 through bolts go through the caliper in a way that would stiffen the caliper nicely- eliminating some caliper flex. I agree the extra leading edges add "application bite", I just liked the through bolt detail.

ltc

Cupcar,
Having owned 2 Corvettes ('84, stolen....from the dealership service bay...driven THRU the doors, replaced with '85 by dealer), I couldn't see myself owning one again.

However, given my Cayenne ownership "experience" (wishing it was the Cayenne stolen from the dealership service bay) and the direction of PAG, I would have to give it at least some consideration.

Thanks PAG.

gjvander

What's the Cayenne doing to you?

Geo

chris walrod

Totally agree about the through bolting strategy. Its a much more cost effective aproach than right-angle machining a monoblock caliper Love or leave it, GM always keeps cost containment in hand..

pcar964

The comparison of a CGT and Z06 is absolutely RIDICULOUS!!

The Z06 will be cheaper, faster, and more track-worthy than the 997S, PERIOD. I have never liked Vettes, and will probably never own one - but I DEFINITELY will not own a new, heavy, wet-sump, 997.

If you want to justify Porsche's newfound love for cost reduction at the expense of quality by comparing a $450k flagship that fewer than 200 people will own, to a readily available sportscar that costs 1/10th of that, then go ahead - but nobody's fooling us true Porsche enthusiasts, we're disgusted with the direction of PAG, and will not shell out $80k for a "911" that gets its *** handed to it on the track by $30k Subaru STis and $60k Chevrolets. Sorry, the honeymoon is over and now Porsche is just cashing in on its years of racing reputation.

Problem is, in 10 years the word "Porsche" will carry no more mystique than "Honda."

The only saving grace is the GT3 that Porsche thankfully still produces, it's the only new pcar worth a damn IMHO.

Greg

Cupcar

I think what I am saying is that Porsche should offer more technology for the buck in their 911 not the Carrera GT.

The market will tell if Porsche can continue the way they are, I understand the new 997 is not a world beater in the showroom sales department.

As for the brakes, no racing car to my knowledge has used the PCCB carbon/silicon brakes until the latest 997 SuperCup cars. It remains to be seen if the latest iteration of PCCB brakes come apart or not. I feel this braking system was an attempt to do a technology trick that failed as a racing brake but actually is the best street brake available.

Many on this forum have not been happy with their PCCB's durability in track use, some have even sued Porsche apparently. It's no fun to spend a few days at the track and get a bill for thousands of dollars for rotors and be told this is expected. Many have changed to cast iron brakes for track use, I have seen Alcon kits advertised as a PCCB replacements for track use.

So, I guess I would use cast iron brakes in my race car unless the class allowed and I could afford true carbon fiber discs as used in F1.