Difficult to Engage Gears
10-01-2004, 09:47 AM
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Difficult to Engage Gears
Here is the situation:
My C-4 was stored over the summer for a couple months. Upon startup after storage, the car was virtually impossible to get into (any) gear and the clutch takeup was almost immediate, i.e., right off of the floorboard as opposed to allowing a bit of travel before takeup. The pedal travel also felt a bit rough and notchy.
I drove the car a bit that first day, and the symptoms lessened quite a bit. The car gradually got easier to put into gear to the point that it became daily drive-worthy once again. I did, however, make an appointment at the time to have the dealership look at the car and told them that I wished to have the clutch bled (per information found in the archives).
After the mechanics looked at the car, they noted the notchy pedal feel and recommended that I replace the clutch. Mind you, this car had a clutch less than ten thousand miles ago and is driven in a regular, very non-aggressive manner. There are no signs of slippage whatsoever. I, reluctant to spend the $1700 or so for a clutch, instructed them to do the clutch bleed as originally suggested. They stated that the bleed was completed and charged an hour's worth of labor.
After getting the car back, there has been little, if any, improvement. The pedal takeup seems like it is back in the normal position (a of travel before it catches), but the car is extremely difficult to get into first gear (or reverse, for that matter) from rest. If I downshift into first at around 3-5 mph, it goes smootly, but any slower and it is as if I have to force it a good deal more than usual. The notchiness and roughness of the pedal feel is still there.
The trans oil was changed around five thousand miles ago and Swepco gear lube was added. I don't know if this informs the analysis at all.
What is likely wrong with my car? What is likely to fix it? Could I really need a new clutch from these symptoms? Why did it occur after a period of storage?
Any help will be much appreciated.
Thanks!
My C-4 was stored over the summer for a couple months. Upon startup after storage, the car was virtually impossible to get into (any) gear and the clutch takeup was almost immediate, i.e., right off of the floorboard as opposed to allowing a bit of travel before takeup. The pedal travel also felt a bit rough and notchy.
I drove the car a bit that first day, and the symptoms lessened quite a bit. The car gradually got easier to put into gear to the point that it became daily drive-worthy once again. I did, however, make an appointment at the time to have the dealership look at the car and told them that I wished to have the clutch bled (per information found in the archives).
After the mechanics looked at the car, they noted the notchy pedal feel and recommended that I replace the clutch. Mind you, this car had a clutch less than ten thousand miles ago and is driven in a regular, very non-aggressive manner. There are no signs of slippage whatsoever. I, reluctant to spend the $1700 or so for a clutch, instructed them to do the clutch bleed as originally suggested. They stated that the bleed was completed and charged an hour's worth of labor.
After getting the car back, there has been little, if any, improvement. The pedal takeup seems like it is back in the normal position (a of travel before it catches), but the car is extremely difficult to get into first gear (or reverse, for that matter) from rest. If I downshift into first at around 3-5 mph, it goes smootly, but any slower and it is as if I have to force it a good deal more than usual. The notchiness and roughness of the pedal feel is still there.
The trans oil was changed around five thousand miles ago and Swepco gear lube was added. I don't know if this informs the analysis at all.
What is likely wrong with my car? What is likely to fix it? Could I really need a new clutch from these symptoms? Why did it occur after a period of storage?
Any help will be much appreciated.
Thanks!
10-01-2004, 10:23 AM
#2
Matt
Listening to this is is quite easy to be a little sceptical (of the shop), but perhaps a little harshly. Certainly after 10k miles, the clutch should be no more than 20% worn (at most) i would have thought, so the suggestion to fit a new clutch is ludicrous. However, if you said 'just do the clutch bleed' then they will probably just do that and nothing else. If you trust them, I would ask them to have a look at the clutch and the associated bits like the guide tubes etx. because it is likely to be a peripheral problem rather than the clutch itself IMHO. Maybe they are just playing 'hard to get' because you refused the clutch...?
Obviously for them to spend time checking it out is going to cost more, but after 10k miles no way is that clutch shot....you might want them to check otu the pedal assembly and so on as well. In my opinion I prefer to deal with shops that are proactive and actually suggest stuff rather than having to rely on your own guesswork....
Listening to this is is quite easy to be a little sceptical (of the shop), but perhaps a little harshly. Certainly after 10k miles, the clutch should be no more than 20% worn (at most) i would have thought, so the suggestion to fit a new clutch is ludicrous. However, if you said 'just do the clutch bleed' then they will probably just do that and nothing else. If you trust them, I would ask them to have a look at the clutch and the associated bits like the guide tubes etx. because it is likely to be a peripheral problem rather than the clutch itself IMHO. Maybe they are just playing 'hard to get' because you refused the clutch...?
Obviously for them to spend time checking it out is going to cost more, but after 10k miles no way is that clutch shot....you might want them to check otu the pedal assembly and so on as well. In my opinion I prefer to deal with shops that are proactive and actually suggest stuff rather than having to rely on your own guesswork....
10-01-2004, 11:43 AM
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It is humid in Virginia during Summer. Was the car outdoors or in a non-climate controlled garage? If so, it is possible that a little rust on the flywheel or the pressure plate is causing the clutch to drag, making it difficult to get into gear or shift.
I had a locked up clutch on a 911 (not a 964) I purchased. The car had been sitting for a couple of years. I managed to break the clutch loose using brute force on a back wheel while a helper held the clutch in. I then had your exact symptoms, which I believe was caused by drag of the clutch disc on on the rusty surfaces of the pressure plate or the flywheel. I polished off the rust by letting the clutch slip with the engine turning about 2000 RPM. I had to do it several times, and I did get things hot enough to smell it. It was either that or a new clutch afterall. Mine finally starting shifting fine, and I did not replace that clutch until the engine needed an overhaul. Your's only sat for a couple of months, so you should not have too much trouble it that is indeed the problem. Just go slow so you don't burn something. Good luck.
I had a locked up clutch on a 911 (not a 964) I purchased. The car had been sitting for a couple of years. I managed to break the clutch loose using brute force on a back wheel while a helper held the clutch in. I then had your exact symptoms, which I believe was caused by drag of the clutch disc on on the rusty surfaces of the pressure plate or the flywheel. I polished off the rust by letting the clutch slip with the engine turning about 2000 RPM. I had to do it several times, and I did get things hot enough to smell it. It was either that or a new clutch afterall. Mine finally starting shifting fine, and I did not replace that clutch until the engine needed an overhaul. Your's only sat for a couple of months, so you should not have too much trouble it that is indeed the problem. Just go slow so you don't burn something. Good luck.
10-01-2004, 06:22 PM
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Springer3: The car was stored in a non-climate controlled garage facing the late afternoon sun. It is likely that the car got quite hot, but I saw it as a better idea than the car sitting outside unattended while I was away.
I tried your clutch slippage technique, but to no avail. I have difficulty allowing myself to slip a clutch heavily as I know these things are so expensive! Like you said, however, its either take the risk or spend the money for the replacement anyway.
Jonfkaminsky: I don't know how I feel about the shop. It's an OPC dealership, for whatever that's worth, but I can just see some young tech working on the car who's had no experience with the older machines mistaking the (typically) heavier clutch in the 964 for one in need of replacement. I drove a new 997 the other day and the clutch felt completely different than any of the older cars I've driven. As for proof of the bleed, how could I check? It's on my invoice, but alas, that is nothing more than circumstantial evidence of the supposed work.
Other suggestions, anyone?
I tried your clutch slippage technique, but to no avail. I have difficulty allowing myself to slip a clutch heavily as I know these things are so expensive! Like you said, however, its either take the risk or spend the money for the replacement anyway.
Jonfkaminsky: I don't know how I feel about the shop. It's an OPC dealership, for whatever that's worth, but I can just see some young tech working on the car who's had no experience with the older machines mistaking the (typically) heavier clutch in the 964 for one in need of replacement. I drove a new 997 the other day and the clutch felt completely different than any of the older cars I've driven. As for proof of the bleed, how could I check? It's on my invoice, but alas, that is nothing more than circumstantial evidence of the supposed work.
Other suggestions, anyone?
10-01-2004, 06:31 PM
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OK, a couple of other things to perhaps consider...
Corrosion on the Input shaft/clutch disc - perhaps cause of having it left standing for some time?
Clutch linkage?
just pulled these from the archives...!
Corrosion on the Input shaft/clutch disc - perhaps cause of having it left standing for some time?
Clutch linkage?
just pulled these from the archives...!
10-01-2004, 08:38 PM
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My 65 911 had been in storage for about 4 months, and when I went to drive it, I kept losing travel with the clutch to the point it was locked in gear! Ended up the clutch fork had cracked and the fork itself kept bending! Now I know the 964 is different, but it goes to show that anything can happen - storage is the enemy!
A candidate would also be your clutch slave - if the seals went bad for whatever reason, you will have trouble shifting like you are discussing. There is someting not letting the clutch totally disengage. If springer's idea didn't work, I'd try to figure out #1 if the clutch was bled PROPERLY, then if the slave is bad. Those would be the two things I'd start with. If you're not the DIY type, I'd find an independent shop to see if they can figure it out!
A candidate would also be your clutch slave - if the seals went bad for whatever reason, you will have trouble shifting like you are discussing. There is someting not letting the clutch totally disengage. If springer's idea didn't work, I'd try to figure out #1 if the clutch was bled PROPERLY, then if the slave is bad. Those would be the two things I'd start with. If you're not the DIY type, I'd find an independent shop to see if they can figure it out!
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10-03-2004, 09:09 PM
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sounds very familiar to my recent situation. All of a sudden I could not shift into any gear upon starting the car. If the car was not running it would go into gear without a problem.
Being a new Porsche owner I wasn't sure what to do and thought the problem may go away.....right!!! Well, the shifting got worse and I figured that I had better call my mechanic that did the 45K service for me.
I was hoping it would not be the "KISS OF DEATH" as the owner of the garage likes to call a major problem and thankfully it wasn't. He replaced the clutch feed hose to the slave cyiinder and after $180 bucks all was well.
Just my 2 cents!!
Brian
Being a new Porsche owner I wasn't sure what to do and thought the problem may go away.....right!!! Well, the shifting got worse and I figured that I had better call my mechanic that did the 45K service for me.
I was hoping it would not be the "KISS OF DEATH" as the owner of the garage likes to call a major problem and thankfully it wasn't. He replaced the clutch feed hose to the slave cyiinder and after $180 bucks all was well.
Just my 2 cents!!
Brian
10-03-2004, 10:33 PM
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Dunno if this has any bearing, but recently i had difficulty shifting my 50,000-mile, new-clutch '93 C2. After much investigation (including flushing, refilling and bleeding the clutch slave cylinder + brakes), I replaced the gear oil. This solved my problem dramatically. But, upon advice of local Porsche types, I didn't use the Swepco but Mobil 1 instead. They recommended MObil 1 for the C2/C4 transmission, saying the Swepco was for the older (apparently previous) transmission. Cost of the fluid was about $36 plus a half-hour labor at my local mechanic. Hope this helps.
10-04-2004, 10:54 PM
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Your symptoms are very similar to those shared by quite a few people on the board. I have read of a lot of people solving it by doing the following in this order:
1. Thoroughly bleed clutch system. The area at the clutch slave cylinder is very hot and it tends to break down the fluid over time.
2. Replace the clutch slave cylinder. And most importantly as Arjan will point out have them change the rubber hose between the clutch slave cylinder and the steel line. The slave cylinder can leak past during part of its stroke or this hose could be deteriorating allowing it to swell slightly.
3. Replace Clutch Master Cylinder and re bleed system.
The symptoms you mentioned generally indicate that on a full push of the clutch pedal you are not fully disengaging the clutch. This makes for a 'notchy' shifter feel, a tendency of the car to want to pull forward even with the clutch fully engaged, and a tendency to try and push your foot through the floor board every time you use the clutch at a red light.
hope this helps
kirk
1. Thoroughly bleed clutch system. The area at the clutch slave cylinder is very hot and it tends to break down the fluid over time.
2. Replace the clutch slave cylinder. And most importantly as Arjan will point out have them change the rubber hose between the clutch slave cylinder and the steel line. The slave cylinder can leak past during part of its stroke or this hose could be deteriorating allowing it to swell slightly.
3. Replace Clutch Master Cylinder and re bleed system.
The symptoms you mentioned generally indicate that on a full push of the clutch pedal you are not fully disengaging the clutch. This makes for a 'notchy' shifter feel, a tendency of the car to want to pull forward even with the clutch fully engaged, and a tendency to try and push your foot through the floor board every time you use the clutch at a red light.
hope this helps
kirk
10-04-2004, 11:01 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
You may want to consider switching the Swepco out for Mobil 1. I put Swepco into my 964 once and the shifting was noticeably notchier and more difficult. Putting Mobil 1 back in solved the problem. I believe other 964 owners have had similar experiences - try doing a search for 'swepco' to confirm.
Good luck
Drew
92 C2
Good luck
Drew
92 C2
08-09-2006, 11:29 AM
#12
Three Wheelin'
KirkF- I know this is an old thread, but I think your suggestions are what I need now. Currently have hanging clutch symptions, and took car to the local Porsche dealer. Hopefully they know your steps (I hope they do anyway)- they seem cheaper than other alternatives!
08-09-2006, 12:11 PM
#13
Andrew, if you are in Northern NJ you may be interested in checking out Bill Haupt of Haupt Strausse Motors 845.783.1425. He's up near Woodbury Common in Harriman, NY. He's an independent and works almost exclusively on Porches, with some Audis mixed in. The other day when I was there he had a very nice 356 C Cab in the drive. The owner had moved to CT and still came back to Bill for service.
Haupt Strasse Motors
Bill Haupt
22 Maple Ave
Harriman, NY
845.783.1425
Just an fyi.
Cheers,
Dave
Haupt Strasse Motors
Bill Haupt
22 Maple Ave
Harriman, NY
845.783.1425
Just an fyi.
Cheers,
Dave
08-09-2006, 02:43 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
"it is possible that a little rust on the flywheel"
I'll 2nd or 3rd that .
"I managed to break the clutch loose using brute force on a back wheel while a helper held the clutch in"
I helped a guy who had a uscle car with a frozen clutch .
I jacked up the car put it on stands , started up the motor and used the motor vs the brakes to bust loose the frozen disc . Clutch pedal in , reved it up , jamed on the brakes , over and over until it popped .
"I tried your clutch slippage technique, but to no avail. I have difficulty allowing myself to slip a clutch heavily as I know these things are so expensive!"
You can slip the thing for a very long time without doing any real harm . Light on off slip over and over to clean up the thing . Don't toast it or burn it .
I'll 2nd or 3rd that .
"I managed to break the clutch loose using brute force on a back wheel while a helper held the clutch in"
I helped a guy who had a uscle car with a frozen clutch .
I jacked up the car put it on stands , started up the motor and used the motor vs the brakes to bust loose the frozen disc . Clutch pedal in , reved it up , jamed on the brakes , over and over until it popped .
"I tried your clutch slippage technique, but to no avail. I have difficulty allowing myself to slip a clutch heavily as I know these things are so expensive!"
You can slip the thing for a very long time without doing any real harm . Light on off slip over and over to clean up the thing . Don't toast it or burn it .