ian

I will leave all names out of this for the time being, but I need some advice.

We have a 964 Turbo in the family that went in for some suspension upgrades, and while in the shop an old alarm created some problems and wouldn't let the car run.

We had hoped the alarm was disabled, but when the batter was disconnected for a few days it tripped some fuel cut off. So my father goes over to the shop to see how the car is doing and ask what can be done.

The mechanic explains that the alarm is the problem and that it needs to come out.

My father asks if we should take it to someone who knows how to work on alarm systems, but the mechanic says that he can do it "cleaner and better" than any one of those shops and encurages my dad to leave the car with him.

So then this guys charges my dad 18 hours of labor to remove the electrics, then there are the 1.5 hours he charged to take the seats out, the .75 hours to put the battery back in, and many other excessive charges.

A total of 28 hours of labor went into removing an alarm. @ 100 dollars an hour, that $2800 dollars to remove an alarm. And he didn't even remove all the wiring, he left in all the wires and left a note on the bill saying to take it to a professional if there are any more problems.....

Called an alarm shop today and they said $100 dollar worst case.

Can we take legal action? Or what can we do?

Adrian

Dear Ian,
It would cost you more to take legal action than the excessive charges. If the alarm system was standard you have been cleaned out by a good 17 hours labour.
All I can suggest is that you dad goes along to your nearest Better Business Office or similar, Consumer Affairs department in your State Government and lodge a complaint.
I am assuming you have tried to negotiate with the mechanic?
These situations have to be dealt with person to person and then through more official channels.
Of course as has already happened in recent days there are two sides to every story.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

ian

Adrian,

If he went in and removed all the alarm system wires I would agree with you that he could have spent that much time, but in reality he didn't he removed the alarm boxes and left all the wires in place because he didn't want to disturb any factory wiring.

I don't feel one should pay a mechanic to learn how to remove an alarm.

For example:

A mechanic has a clutch to install on a 944, it takes him 8 extra hours over what the books says because it was his first time. The person paying the bill doesn't pay for those extra hours, he pays the book amount.

likewise that same mechanic after doing 15 clutch jobs now does them in 4 hours underbook, he dosn't give a discount he just gets it done faster and again charges the book amount.

My feeling is there should be some standard amount of time that should be charged, and just because this mechanic didn't know how to remove the alarm we shouldn't have to pay for him learning on my fathers car.

But yes the BBB is an option, but I hope it dosn't come to that and this mechanic see the light of day, I just wanted to see what options are out there.

And again i'm not giving any names because I do want to give things a chance.

dutchcrunch

hello,

something does not sound right here. why not replace the defective part instead of ripping whole sytem out. this is not the way to repair a car. i feel for you as we are sometimes at the mercy of the repair facility and become enlighted after we pay all that money. i thought that one can diagnose the alarm system on you model. i dont know what agencys you have but in the state of California the have not only the BBS but the BAR which stands for bureau of automotive repair, you call them and if there is any fraud they will get your money back no problem and be all over the repair facility like fly on poop. dont let this matter slip by as this is totally unprofessional. this is a 964 turbo we are talking about here not no dunebuggy. i swear these days you have to be a barber, doctor, real estate broker and laywer to keep up on one toes. dont let them get away with this.

JasonAndreas

If you don't get anywhere with your ex-mechanic try small claims court, it will cost you nothing more than your time.

cobalt

Ian,

What did your mechanic tell you he did for those 18 hours? If he did not have the knowledge and experience to work on the alarm then he never should have taken the job on.

I would see if he is registered with the local Better Business bureau and file a complaint, if he is. Other wise the local Chamber of Commerce can usually help.

For 18 hours he could have removed and replaced the entire wiring harness in the car and had time left over.

John Speake

It's a good idea to always get a quote, if you just said "OK remove the alarm" then you good as wrote him a blank cheque (check)

vove

Sorry to say this but you and your dad got taken!!!!! Why not tell us the name of the shop so it wont happen others???

Adrian

Huh! I said you got cleaned out by 17 hours. That is Australian for "You have been over charged by 17 hours". Job should have taken an hour which includes removing the pax seat (not really necessary anyway) and re-installing the pax seat. The control unit is under the seat, needs just the connector to be fitted with a jumper to bypass the immobilser.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

ian

This was a non factory alpine alarm, so he did have to find the unit, but that really wasn't very hard, and was accomplished very early on in the 28 total hours the car was "worked" on.

springer3

I may be behind the times, but I thought $100 per hour is the rate for an experienced professional, somebody that could solve your problem in 30 minutes. This guy sounds clueless, and no bargain even at $25/hour. Get an expert opinion on what the time required is, and take it to small claims court. You should get most of your money back.

Adrian

Dear Ian,
Did you provide or did he have the installation diagrams for this alarm system? I can see some excuses coming here from the mechanic if he was not provided with all relevant information. Not that I agree with his time at all but you see it is not just removal of the units but also finding the immobiliser circuits and bypassing them. If he had no drawings this would have been difficult and he could use just this one fact to justify his time on the job.
As I always say there are two sides to all stories and I can see lack of information being the key to justification of his claim. If he had to work all this out for himself he will get some support for the time he charged.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Rennen

Adrian. I don't follow that line of logic. The mechanic is supposed to be the pro here. If the mechanic doesn't have the information he needs to do the job in a reasonable amount of time, he should either get the information he needs in advance or notify the customer that he doesn't have the info he needs. If that's the case, then he should ask the customer if he has the info or if he's allowed to have carte' blanche on the car and take as long as it takes. This was a ridiculously large amount of money for a shoddy job and I think the customer has every right to refuse to pay or pay only a reduced amount and let them mechanic come after him for more if he really thinks he's right.

Adrian

Yes it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world but we do not.
I am providing the various reasons why a customer may lose his/her case. You cannot refuse to pay a bill either. You have to make a claim to get the money back. You are also making claims about shoddy work. You do not know if the work was shoddy. None of us have seen the car, none of us have seen the system. None of us have actually seen the bill! Another issue here is we only get half the story. There is another side to the story and it also has to be listened to especially in court.
This is why I do not like to see these posts on Rennlist because we do not know all the facts and the advice given can easily cost the poster (or in this case his dad) a whole bunch more money. Then he comes back here and tells us we are a bunch of idiots. This has happened before.
Nothing is black and white and my question to Ian remains unanswered about the flow of information. We also do not know the instructions given to the mechanic either. It would not be the first time a customer says "Do what it takes to fix the problem". That is called a blank cheque.
I will tell you that bypassing the immobliser circuit will take 2-persons to check it through. 2-persons 1 hour = 2 man hours charge. 2-persons 9 hours = 18 man hours charge. These things quickly add up.
I still say 28 hours is excessive but we all have to be careful when making carche blanche judgements without seeing any of the facts or even talking to the shop. My advice is always try and work it out first. This may be one of those times where two people in good faith had a slight hiccup. Ian's father should visit the mechanic ask for a written explanation of the billing and try and nicely negotiate the charges down. Remember this thread is by the son of the person involved and I am sure Ian is looking after his father's best interests always but the best interest's of both parties would be to sit down and talk about it face to face.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: It would also be nice to know who you are RedRS. If you are going to debate I like to know who I am debating with.

Bill Wagner

1.5 hours to take the seats out and .75 to swap out the battery????

When I put my stereo in two years ago I had NEVER taken the seats out, but I needed to in order to route cabling. IT TOOK ME ABOUT THREE HOURS TO INSTALL THE STEREO, RE-WIRE EVERYTHING, ETC. ETC. and the majority of that time WAS NOT spent removing seats and putting them back in again. Anyone who knows what they're doing could probably take the seats out and re-install them in 20 minutes, and I think THAT estimate is probably on the long side. Both of my seats are automatic, so I need to remove the cables as well (Gee....that must take a whopping, what, 30 seconds???).

Based on that information I would defininately file a complaint with anyone you can. That price is outrageous. FWIW, most Porsche specialists in this area (D.C.) aren't charging $100/hour for labor, either. They may at dealerships, but most shops seem to be charging $65-$80/hour.