anyone racing a C4 - would you rather race a C2??
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Club racers out there - how does a C4 do compared to an equally equipped (I know the driver makes the most difference, but...) C2 on the track?
Seems that most racers are using a C2 instead of a C4 for many reasons. Are there any C4 racers out there happy with having a C4 versus a C2?? Joey B is one I know of, are there any others and what results have you seen??
Thanks for the opinions - just doing my PPR (pre-purchase research)!!!
Seems that most racers are using a C2 instead of a C4 for many reasons. Are there any C4 racers out there happy with having a C4 versus a C2?? Joey B is one I know of, are there any others and what results have you seen??
Thanks for the opinions - just doing my PPR (pre-purchase research)!!!
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The C2s should be quicker. They are classified as an E car with a minimum weight of 3031 lbs (12.27 lbs/bhp), where the C4s are F cars at 3197 lbs (12.94 lbs/bhp).
I have seen a lot of C4s in DEs, but Ive only ever seen one C4 in club racing. The car was very competitive in F, but had no expense spared with preparation and the driver was not only fast but very unaffraid to push the envelope. It was wrecked pretty hard more than once. He ended up building up a C2, but sold it after running it just a few times.
You probably want to consider what class you would rather run in: The C2 in E against 944 Turbo S's and 944S2 Firehawk Cars; or the C4 in F against 911SC Euros, 944 Turbos, 944S2s, and 968s. F is usually a larger class at most events so there will be more competition.
I have seen a lot of C4s in DEs, but Ive only ever seen one C4 in club racing. The car was very competitive in F, but had no expense spared with preparation and the driver was not only fast but very unaffraid to push the envelope. It was wrecked pretty hard more than once. He ended up building up a C2, but sold it after running it just a few times.
You probably want to consider what class you would rather run in: The C2 in E against 944 Turbo S's and 944S2 Firehawk Cars; or the C4 in F against 911SC Euros, 944 Turbos, 944S2s, and 968s. F is usually a larger class at most events so there will be more competition.
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It's interesting that the POC groups them together - C2's, C4's, RsAmerica's, Carrera 2.7's, 944 turbos, and even 928's - in class K.
The C4 and American Roadster appear outgunned from a HP/weight standpoint...
The C4 and American Roadster appear outgunned from a HP/weight standpoint...
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Well its probable that PCA being a much larger organization, with a much larger pool of participants and cars, can break their classifications down into fewer models, but still have a solid representation of each class at most events. You can check the PCA website and find the Club Racing rules. There are more models in each class than I listed, I just named the ones you commonly see at the track.
For PCA, C2's used to be in class F, but they were bumped up to E a couple years ago because they proved their performance was arguably higher than the rest of the F class field (Im not convinced the Euro SCs are any slower than the C2's). But at the time, it was discussed and decided that the C4's should stay in F. The rule changes were based off of several years of race results, lap times, and tech specs of the cars.
I do know that a 944S2 Firehawk driver told me that the C2's can pull him on long straights. And I was running my 944T (in E Class Club Race trim) in a DE with the C2 that I mentioned in my previous post. And it would really pull me on the top end (above about 110mph). Of interest, we were also playing with an RS America, and that car could leap frog us both down the long straight. I was surprised how much more pull the RS had over the C2, supposedly having the same bhp.
For PCA, C2's used to be in class F, but they were bumped up to E a couple years ago because they proved their performance was arguably higher than the rest of the F class field (Im not convinced the Euro SCs are any slower than the C2's). But at the time, it was discussed and decided that the C4's should stay in F. The rule changes were based off of several years of race results, lap times, and tech specs of the cars.
I do know that a 944S2 Firehawk driver told me that the C2's can pull him on long straights. And I was running my 944T (in E Class Club Race trim) in a DE with the C2 that I mentioned in my previous post. And it would really pull me on the top end (above about 110mph). Of interest, we were also playing with an RS America, and that car could leap frog us both down the long straight. I was surprised how much more pull the RS had over the C2, supposedly having the same bhp.
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Originally posted by garrett376
how does a C4 compare to an equally equipped C2 on the track?
how does a C4 compare to an equally equipped C2 on the track?
As for the performance edge, I think lap times provide some objective guidance but not the whole story. The results below suggest that the C2 has the clear edge, but what they don't clarify are mods, experience, track familiarity, etc. Probably the most notable feature of the c4's setup is that it ran on MPSC's which most would agree are not as fast as Hoosiers. FWIW.
Last edited by joey bagadonuts; 09-04-2013 at 05:16 PM.
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Originally posted by joey bagadonuts
Not to hijack your thread, Garrett, but I think it might be useful to also solicit inputs from those who have switched between C4's, C2's and TT's and get their take on handling differences.
Not to hijack your thread, Garrett, but I think it might be useful to also solicit inputs from those who have switched between C4's, C2's and TT's and get their take on handling differences.
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This still does not get closer to answering the original question, but does add a little more empirical data to the lap time chart:
The specific C4 and C2 that I mentioned above show up in the Road America results back in 1998 (C4 ran a 2:40.18) and then in 2000 the same driver with a C2 (although it was misidentified as a C4 in the results) ran a 2:38.4. Interestingly, that same C2, with new owner at the helm, is the car that ran the 2:35.0 at Sebring this year.
The specific C4 and C2 that I mentioned above show up in the Road America results back in 1998 (C4 ran a 2:40.18) and then in 2000 the same driver with a C2 (although it was misidentified as a C4 in the results) ran a 2:38.4. Interestingly, that same C2, with new owner at the helm, is the car that ran the 2:35.0 at Sebring this year.
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Oddjob, that's interesting information.
It starts to make me realize that my question is going to be a very hard one to answer with facts, although the data Oddjob and Joey have mentioned is really interesting and it is helpful- so keep it coming!
I remember that when I added a ducktail to my 65 911 for one season, I shaved around 5 seconds off my best laptime at willow springs because I could hold 105 mph through turns 7-8, whereas before I could hardly keep 95mph without the back end coming loose. Makes me realize that there are so many little variables that will change lap times - just like the ducktail in my example.
I'm surprised that it is so rare to come across C4's in the racing scene.
the ducktail in action (ugly, therefore no longer on the car):
It starts to make me realize that my question is going to be a very hard one to answer with facts, although the data Oddjob and Joey have mentioned is really interesting and it is helpful- so keep it coming!
I remember that when I added a ducktail to my 65 911 for one season, I shaved around 5 seconds off my best laptime at willow springs because I could hold 105 mph through turns 7-8, whereas before I could hardly keep 95mph without the back end coming loose. Makes me realize that there are so many little variables that will change lap times - just like the ducktail in my example.
I'm surprised that it is so rare to come across C4's in the racing scene.
the ducktail in action (ugly, therefore no longer on the car):
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Still not addressing the comparo question
but here's some feedback on racing a C4 I received from Chris Reinsborough, PCA Club Racer:
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I've owned mine for almost 8 years (actually bought it in Chicago when I lived there) and have been tracking it for almost 5 (this was my first year club racing and went to 4 races). I'm also an instructor for the DE events. I also think I'm probably the only 964 C4 club racer - and given the fact that a lot of people don't like the C4 configuration for track driving, it (in my opinion) is quite competitive in F class (and if it ever rains....). That was my first time at Road America and have to say that I love that track - next year I hope to do even better there, as the long tracks in F class work well for our heavy cars as the extra HP/torque helps pull away from the 3.2's, and the 944's on the long straights (but they are much better in the corners).
Yes, some people tend to have more money than others for the club racing thing - that's why I'll always be in a stock class of some sort - and in fact, really enjoy F class. It has a lot of competition, and doesn't require a fortune to prepare your car. Probably my biggest one time expense was my suspension (which cost me $5K installed). Safety equipment is safety equipment and taking off a muffler and a cat doesn't cost that much. I'm a low maintenance person at the track (compared to the other cars that my mechanic supports - primarily a handful of GT3 cup cars). Usually all I tend to watch are tire pressures and make sure I have enough pads left and that the car feels fine. My car has been extremely reliable and hope that yours is that way as well. This summer I had to change 3 wheel bearings (they were the original ones on the car!! Still have one original one left) so maybe I'm lucky, or it's a good indication of the reliability of our cars.
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Originally posted by garrett376
when I added a ducktail to my 65 911 for one season, I shaved around 5 seconds off my best laptime at willow springs ...
... the ducktail in action (ugly, therefore no longer on the car):
when I added a ducktail to my 65 911 for one season, I shaved around 5 seconds off my best laptime at willow springs ...
... the ducktail in action (ugly, therefore no longer on the car):
Regardless, that is a very remarkable performance improvement from a little upturned lip on your deck. I've heard of similar gains from new suspension bushings or toe adjustments from one of my hardcore racer buddies so your point is a good one regarding the multitude of adjustments which can result in better times.
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Originally posted by joey bagadonuts
Still not addressing the comparo question
but here's some feedback on racing a C4 I received from Chris Reinsborough, PCA Club Racer:
Still not addressing the comparo question
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His car, and driving, is very quick in contrast to the perception some of these comments, and the reputation of the car, would indicate. Joe W.
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Originally posted by JoeW
he took first place in Group F
he took first place in Group F
Thanks for sharing, Joe!
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Joey and/or JoeW, do you know the mods he did to his C4??
I am leaning towards a C4 racer - better overall traction for those South-of-the-Border Carrera races, too...
I am leaning towards a C4 racer - better overall traction for those South-of-the-Border Carrera races, too...
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Chris actually sent me a note this morning to address your question:
Relative to some of the Club Racers I run into, Chris's setup seems to be a relative bargain. The big expense most folks can't seem to stay away from are the single or double adjustable, remote reservoir shocks from JRZ or Moton. I believe they run about $6-8K for the set; Chris spent $5K on the RSR's installed.
Oh and here's the race write up:
I saw the forum posting, and looks like someone had a question as to mods. Aside from the standard safety gear, seats, etc. I have the typical Bilstein RSR suspension setup that most 964's have done with slightly heavier springs than people use in the C2 setup. I recently went back to a stock front sway bar (had a 24mm one before - now back to the 20mm one) and that seemed to help a bit with the pushing. So far haven't figured out the perfect solution to it's tendency to 'push' so I just deal with it - hence I'm not quite as quick in the corners to other F cars or C2's with equivalent driver ability for that matter. I run Michelin Pilot Sport cups on 17's 225's and 255's and like their reliability and predictability. I have stock headers, cat bypass, primary muffler bypass and the stock final muffler in place. I've seen many different exhaust variations beyond stock, but hey it's just money and mine seems to work well and was cheaper in the grand scheme of things. I run Performance Friction PFC97's for pads and slotted frozen rotors up front (only ones I've found that I can't warp easily!!).
Oh and here's the race write up:
It was nice to run a virtually perfect race from my driving standpoint. I got a good jump from the start, and held it pretty much through. Although I have to say that if it went one more lap, another F car - a 3.2 911 would have caught me as my brakes were starting to fade as he was half a second behind me - ah the joys of a heavy car.