garrett376

Club racers out there - how does a C4 do compared to an equally equipped (I know the driver makes the most difference, but...) C2 on the track?

Seems that most racers are using a C2 instead of a C4 for many reasons. Are there any C4 racers out there happy with having a C4 versus a C2?? Joey B is one I know of, are there any others and what results have you seen??

Thanks for the opinions - just doing my PPR (pre-purchase research)!!!

Oddjob

The C2s should be quicker. They are classified as an E car with a minimum weight of 3031 lbs (12.27 lbs/bhp), where the C4s are F cars at 3197 lbs (12.94 lbs/bhp).

I have seen a lot of C4s in DEs, but Ive only ever seen one C4 in club racing. The car was very competitive in F, but had no expense spared with preparation and the driver was not only fast but very unaffraid to push the envelope. It was wrecked pretty hard more than once. He ended up building up a C2, but sold it after running it just a few times.

You probably want to consider what class you would rather run in: The C2 in E against 944 Turbo S's and 944S2 Firehawk Cars; or the C4 in F against 911SC Euros, 944 Turbos, 944S2s, and 968s. F is usually a larger class at most events so there will be more competition.

garrett376

It's interesting that the POC groups them together - C2's, C4's, RsAmerica's, Carrera 2.7's, 944 turbos, and even 928's - in class K.

The C4 and American Roadster appear outgunned from a HP/weight standpoint...

Oddjob

Well its probable that PCA being a much larger organization, with a much larger pool of participants and cars, can break their classifications down into fewer models, but still have a solid representation of each class at most events. You can check the PCA website and find the Club Racing rules. There are more models in each class than I listed, I just named the ones you commonly see at the track.

For PCA, C2's used to be in class F, but they were bumped up to E a couple years ago because they proved their performance was arguably higher than the rest of the F class field (Im not convinced the Euro SCs are any slower than the C2's). But at the time, it was discussed and decided that the C4's should stay in F. The rule changes were based off of several years of race results, lap times, and tech specs of the cars.

I do know that a 944S2 Firehawk driver told me that the C2's can pull him on long straights. And I was running my 944T (in E Class Club Race trim) in a DE with the C2 that I mentioned in my previous post. And it would really pull me on the top end (above about 110mph). Of interest, we were also playing with an RS America, and that car could leap frog us both down the long straight. I was surprised how much more pull the RS had over the C2, supposedly having the same bhp.

joey bagadonuts

Perhaps the question is too specific since there are probably few people who have driven both at the track. Not to hijack your thread, Garrett, but I think it might be useful to also solicit inputs from those who have switched between C4's, C2's and TT's and get their take on handling differences.

As for the performance edge, I think lap times provide some objective guidance but not the whole story. The results below suggest that the C2 has the clear edge, but what they don't clarify are mods, experience, track familiarity, etc. Probably the most notable feature of the c4's setup is that it ran on MPSC's which most would agree are not as fast as Hoosiers. FWIW.

garrett376

Good thoughts Joey. Any input on the C4 as a racecar is what I'm after!

Oddjob

This still does not get closer to answering the original question, but does add a little more empirical data to the lap time chart:

The specific C4 and C2 that I mentioned above show up in the Road America results back in 1998 (C4 ran a 2:40.18) and then in 2000 the same driver with a C2 (although it was misidentified as a C4 in the results) ran a 2:38.4. Interestingly, that same C2, with new owner at the helm, is the car that ran the 2:35.0 at Sebring this year.

garrett376

Oddjob, that's interesting information.

It starts to make me realize that my question is going to be a very hard one to answer with facts, although the data Oddjob and Joey have mentioned is really interesting and it is helpful- so keep it coming!

I remember that when I added a ducktail to my 65 911 for one season, I shaved around 5 seconds off my best laptime at willow springs because I could hold 105 mph through turns 7-8, whereas before I could hardly keep 95mph without the back end coming loose. Makes me realize that there are so many little variables that will change lap times - just like the ducktail in my example.

I'm surprised that it is so rare to come across C4's in the racing scene.



the ducktail in action (ugly, therefore no longer on the car):

joey bagadonuts

Still not addressing the comparo question but here's some feedback on racing a C4 I received from Chris Reinsborough, PCA Club Racer:

joey bagadonuts

Sure, the silver version seems a little off, but I'm surprised you wouldn't keep it for the performance gains. Maybe swap it on and off for track events?

Regardless, that is a very remarkable performance improvement from a little upturned lip on your deck. I've heard of similar gains from new suspension bushings or toe adjustments from one of my hardcore racer buddies so your point is a good one regarding the multitude of adjustments which can result in better times.

JoeW

Coincidentally, I gridded, met, and enjoyed talking with Chris at the Watkins Glen Zone 1 enduros this weekend. In the sprint (30 mins.) on Saturday, he took first place in Group F. On Sunday in the enduro (90 minutes), he took 6th but attributes the 'loss' to bad management of his pit stop (5 minutes is required by PCA rules) when it took him about 10 seconds extra to adjust his belts ... he had the lead when he pitted, iirc, and felt he could have held it.

His car, and driving, is very quick in contrast to the perception some of these comments, and the reputation of the car, would indicate. Joe W.

joey bagadonuts

Wow! That's great news and very impressive! Chris was very generous and offered me a lot of good advice when I dropped him a line out of the blue--glad to see nice guys can finish first. I'll have to drop him a line.
Thanks for sharing, Joe!

garrett376

Joey and/or JoeW, do you know the mods he did to his C4??

I am leaning towards a C4 racer - better overall traction for those South-of-the-Border Carrera races, too...

joey bagadonuts

Chris actually sent me a note this morning to address your question:Relative to some of the Club Racers I run into, Chris's setup seems to be a relative bargain. The big expense most folks can't seem to stay away from are the single or double adjustable, remote reservoir shocks from JRZ or Moton. I believe they run about $6-8K for the set; Chris spent $5K on the RSR's installed.

Oh and here's the race write up: