RonBrooksNY

I owned a 944 for years but a knee problem has meant the end of manual transmisisons for me. So, I have made a short list of cars to consider. Since I have to go automatic, I'd like to retain some of the manual feel if I can. I've also told myself to help soften the change, I will buy a convertible. God knows I've missed them since I stopped driving MGBs. Of course that's also the same time I bought cars that actually started when you turned the key!

Anyway, my list is the Boxster 1999-2000, M3 1998-1999 and 964. The BMW has one big advantage because it actually sits more than 2 people. This may or may not affect my decision, but I have to admit it sure is the most practical.

I have to admit I'm asusming the 964 refers to the Carerra2 of 1990- until the 993 was introduced. I see some people refer to the 964 as only the 4 wheel drive version and others both 4 and rear drive models. Since the tiptronic was only available on the rear drive verison, I hope I'm in the correct forum. If not, let me know.

Here are my questions:
1) The 968 (perhaps my favorite P-car in terms of looks although the coupe is much more beautiful) with its tiptronic is known for flex disc problems. I haven't seen any such problems on the 911 list so I am getting the idea that the tiptronic really does not have many issues for problems. Is this the case? Tell me the tranny will be a bullet proof as the 4 speed in my '88 300SE !!!

2) I have read that there was a problem that affected some '90-91 C2 engines because they were assembled without gaskets of some kind and that when they are rebuilt one should make sure they are machined and gaskets are used. But no one mentions when this engine assembly issue stopped being an issue. Surely it was not until the 993. Anyone know when this issue was addressed by the factory?

3) Assuming proper maintenance, what is the life expectancy of a C2 engine before head or lower end needs rebuilding? I am surprised by the number of cars I have seen for sale with full or partial rebuilds before 75,000 miles.

4) Will the A/C system in this car be comparable of better than that in my old 944? It looks like we'll be relocating from Long Island, NY to Alpharetta, GA and I don't want to die in July-August. I will avoid a black interior at all costs and go for window tint with some metal for reflective properties but I still don't want to roast inside the car.

5) Anyone with a tiptronic trans, I'd love to hear any general comments and any problems or issues you know of.

Thanks,
Ron Brooks

DaveK

Hi,

You are in the correct forum. 964s are 2wd and 4wd and - as you say - tiptronic was only avaliable for C2s. By the way - you can get 4 people in a 964, but generally that's only practical for short journeys or for kids in the back.

1) I can't comment too much on the tiptronic transmission since I have manual - but in the 2.5 years I've been on this board (and was on Smartgroups for some of that too) I don't remember ever seeing someone raise a problem with the tiptronic. I have seen this question asked before though - and I have seen answers saying they are bulletproof.

2) Yes, some did have leaks because they didn't have head gaskets. But, it was a much overblown problem. You need to check the car you look at quite carefully - if it seriously leaks you probably don't want it anyway (even it it's leaking from somewhere else). If it isn't leaking - then it's unlikely to suddenly start now. There was a poll on this a long time ago and it really wasn't such a big problem as the press made out. My engine gets damp on the bottom - but never leaves any oil under it and I never have to top the oil up.
As far as I know you can't "machine" and use new gaskets - you would have to buy new barrels which are obviously very expensive. This change was introduced on MY 91 (after engine serial number 62M52757 for tiptronics - thanks to Adrians book!). But as I say - I wouldn't worry about this too much, since the cars are sufficiently old now that they either leak badly or they don't and are unlikely to suddenly start (and even cars with gaskets can leak).

3) Depends entirely on use. Mine was apparently rebuilt at 120K - and I was told that was mostly to cure oil leaks. People don't generally need bottom end rebuilds. But get a PPI and you should be able to tell whether you're likely to need a top end rebuild anytime soon. I think also that people seem more willing to pay for rebuilds to these cars to keep the performance up, just due to the sort of cars they are - so sometimes the mileage does look quite low.

4) A/C system is OK - but I'd be surprised if it's better than the 944. Liquid cooled cars have better heating systems - and although I'm not convinced it makes a difference to the A/C I think most people consider the 964 A/C to be adequate rather than fantastic. Although I have seen some people say it is very very good so maybe if it's in top condition..... Mine has always been adequate - but on the other hand, my evaporator died last year so maybe that's why it wasn't so good.

Julian Thompson

Being honest I think the Tiptronic system in the 964 is just no where near as good as the later, SMG style systems from people like BMW - I personally would go for a BMW M3 without a second's thought if I had to go automatic in a drivers car.

Good luck!

Julian Thompson

Ah - but I just reread your post and notice that you seem to be looking at the E36 M3 - Which in my opinion wasn't a patch on the new E46 one and more importantly I don't believe came with the SMG setup

So, I reckon on this basis, if the budget won't stretch to an E46 SMG M3 then the 964 would be fantastic - certainly a hell of a lot better than the old M3 and with a new boxster around the corner I don't expect the low depreciation status of that car to last forever!

DavidI

The E36 had the original SMG as an option from (I think) 1997/98, while the E46 has SMG II. The E36 M3 was a cracking car (nothing with a 321bhp straight 6 should be written off so quickly, IMHO!) but approached things from a different angle to the 964 and perhaps E46; it was primarily a BMW, but with a serious sports slant, as opposed to being a sports car with 4 seats. All M3's have been accused of falling between two stools, being neither refined enough to be GT's, nor pure enough to be sports cars. They make a pretty appealing package however for someone looking for a single car that can do it all!
I'd sooner have the 964 tip, but if I needed more than occasional rear seats an M3 would be a nice alternative.

Julian Thompson

David - the handling on that old one was a bit staid though wasn't it? I've not owned either car but have driven both old and new one and seem to recall the E36 being understeery and not very rewarding to drive. (but agreed about the engine and I didn't realise they did SMG back then!)

As ever I think the answer is a few test drives to get your own personal opinion sorted!

joey bagadonuts

The great-handling E36 M3 was the '95--the first year available here in the States. After that, the lawyers and marketing geniuses in Bavaria decided it would be best to tame the beast a bit. Wider rear wheels/tires, softer suspension and all the other nonsense required to make a spectacular car into one which the masses could love and drive safely. Uuggghhh!!!

If you tested one of the 96-on cars, Julian, I can see where you got that impression. As for the 321 bhp--that's the Euro spec, unfortunately. In the States, the car produces approx. 240 bhp and has similar preformance specs to the 964.

Ron, I don't think you can go wrong with either: M3 or 964. And for $25K, a used Boxster is a very sweet deal.

RonBrooksNY

Dave K and everyone else:

Thanks for your replies. It seems the real question for me will be whether I need or how often I'll use a back seat. If it's not so imnportant than a 91 (now that Dave was good enough to let me know the engine number to look for) or later 964 or a Boxster will be a good choice to have to make. When is the new Boxster to come out? WIll it be a 2005 Model Year? I'd love to see the new one come out to drive the cost down a bit. I want a 2.7L Boxster and that means 2000+ and they're just barely in my price range now. A new Boxster should help push the 2000MY down to my wallet!

DavidI

Hi Julian,
Relative to a 964, yes. I'm not sure anyone would make a +300bhp saloon without initial understeer - chances are the Lotus Carlton and pre-evo E36 M3 will be the last! I guess (and I never found out) that you could counter the understeer with power, but like so many modern cars the limits were so high that your experiments would be done at the kind of speeds where finding out you were wrong would be a painful and expensive experience. Not a sports car, but a very quick sports saloon!
Cheers,
David

springer3

I'll comment on 4 and 5:

4) I live in Atlanta - very close to where you are moving. I have been stuck in slow traffic in full sun with the temperature and humidity both near 100. The cabin stayed cool, and the engine did not overheat. This is a great improvement from the early 911s, which needed the AC turned off on the hottest days to save the engine. If you want to be chilled to the bone on the hottest days, you will probably be dissapointed. If you just need to be comfortable, the 964 system is quite good. I am starting my 3 rd summer in the car, and so far there have been no AC repairs or charging required. The PO did replace the compresser and install barrier hoses in 1996, and he did manage to keep R12 Freon in the system.

5) Engine life does depend on degree of abuse and maintenance. My PO had regular service, and apparently did not abuse the car. There is no trace of leaks anywhere, and the car drives and rides like new at 52,000 miles. Time will tell, but I don't expect to need any major repairs until I am well above 100 k miles.

PC2

The Tip is a joy to drive especially in traffic. I've not experienced or heard of serious problems relating to the Tip. It is, as many had said, bullet proof. Maintenance are minimal compare to a manual transmission. Performance is a bit disappointing driving in the "D" mode. But in manual mode or "3" it's quite capable. You might want to look for '92+ cars because of the revised Tip brain.