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DP is no better than the American made carbon fiber body parts. The other thing to remember with aftermarket carbon fiber parts for Porsches is that, it doesn't matter how much clear coat you bury them in, unless they never see the light of day, they all suffer from print-through that gets worse and worse as the years go by.
Thank you for sharing this key insight as I did not know! Does the print-through issue apply to factory carbon fiber body parts as well?
For a project of this scale, I plan on keeping it a long time so this definitely has me leaning towards staying with metal.
Thanks so much for the kind words. I am really glad you have found the build interesting.
As for weight, its hard to say at this stage as I am not super experienced with Porsche's and there are lots of different data points on this forum. But I am guessing around 1,150kg's. But others on this forum will be better placed than me to guess weight.
In any event, once I have the thing fully assembled in a few weeks, I will be getting it weighed (accurately). So standby
Your build thread is one of my reference go to sources!
In a few weeks?! That must be very exciting. I look forward to seeing it fully assembled and hearing your impressions.
Can an integrated roll cage be built by a very competent shop if the interior is completely stripped?
From a street car safety perspective, is the integrated roll cage still too risky without a helmet or is there sufficient room?
My '69 race car with full cage is 879kg without any carbon fiber but you will add some weight due to wider body, larger engine, gearbox and larger wheels. Good luck with the build!
Your interior needs to come out to have a proper cage installed. I'd suggest you use a shop with experience and pay particular attention to your seating position, the correct angles of the belts and build it in full compliance of an appropriate racing organization as that will help you with future resale. For most people, your seat will need to be lowered to have adequate head clearance. You will need to make some decisions in terms of retaining your door cards, which would allow you to incorporate Nascar type buckets rather than cross bars. It is dangerous to run a fully caged car on the road, even with proper foam padding given that you will likely run with a 3 point belt. It's not just your head but your extremities that will impact the various cage components in cage of an accident. I have witnessed lots of broken ankles and wrists in my racing career.
Edit: Other than RUF, I have never seen a truly integrated roll cage installed. If you look at their work, it is truly a work of art.
My '69 race car with full cage is 879kg without any carbon fiber but you will add some weight due to wider body, larger engine, gearbox and larger wheels. Good luck with the build!
Your interior needs to come out to have a proper cage installed. I'd suggest you use a shop with experience and pay particular attention to your seating position, the correct angles of the belts and build it in full compliance of an appropriate racing organization as that will help you with future resale. For most people, your seat will need to be lowered to have adequate head clearance. You will need to make some decisions in terms of retaining your door cards, which would allow you to incorporate Nascar type buckets rather than cross bars. It is dangerous to run a fully caged car on the road, even with proper foam padding given that you will likely run with a 3 point belt. It's not just your head but your extremities that will impact the various cage components in cage of an accident. I have witnessed lots of broken ankles and wrists in my racing career.
Edit: Other than RUF, I have never seen a truly integrated roll cage installed. If you look at their work, it is truly a work of art.
This community is amazing! Thank you for sharing these experiences. 879kg is incredible.
If I end up going with the full cage route, I plan on using the 6-point harness full-time. However, that will still be without helmet and extremities protection though. I think the shop I have in mind can get close to RUF’s integrated roll cage work. However, I am afraid of the cost and that might become one of the deciding factors.
I need to look into RUF’s integrated roll cage a bit more. Does anyone have more information that you can point me to? Correct to assume that setup is safe for road use without a helmet, right?
My '69 race car with full cage is 879kg without any carbon fiber but you will add some weight due to wider body, larger engine, gearbox and larger wheels. Good luck with the build!
Your interior needs to come out to have a proper cage installed. I'd suggest you use a shop with experience and pay particular attention to your seating position, the correct angles of the belts and build it in full compliance of an appropriate racing organization as that will help you with future resale. For most people, your seat will need to be lowered to have adequate head clearance. You will need to make some decisions in terms of retaining your door cards, which would allow you to incorporate Nascar type buckets rather than cross bars. It is dangerous to run a fully caged car on the road, even with proper foam padding given that you will likely run with a 3 point belt. It's not just your head but your extremities that will impact the various cage components in cage of an accident. I have witnessed lots of broken ankles and wrists in my racing career.
Edit: Other than RUF, I have never seen a truly integrated roll cage installed. If you look at their work, it is truly a work of art.
The early cars are much lighter. My 71T is 2200 lbs in full street trim.
Lots of good advice here. you can see the cage build process and sunroof removal I underwent in my thread. A few things:
full cage on street, no way, unless something like RUF does, totally agree, this is why I only did a back half, and yes, we spent a lot of time getting the seat belt and rear hoop selection right. I'm not tall, but some are, and belt location and angles matter. We did build mine to PCA/NASA specs in the rear, so if I ever decide to do the front we can add it but given street car, nope.
Interior does have to come out
and you want to address other issues, like the stamped steel seat mount points, boxing those in for reinforcement.
Originally Posted by ForeverCar
This community is amazing! Thank you for sharing these experiences. 879kg is incredible.
If I end up going with the full cage route, I plan on using the 6-point harness full-time. However, that will still be without helmet and extremities protection though. I think the shop I have in mind can get close to RUF’s integrated roll cage work. However, I am afraid of the cost and that might become one of the deciding factors.
I need to look into RUF’s integrated roll cage a bit more. Does anyone have more information that you can point me to? Correct to assume that setup is safe for road use without a helmet, right?
Its not a good idea to run 6pt harnesses without a HANS. Read up on Atlanto-occipital dislocation and basal skull fractures.
Short story is, your heavy head, cannot be controlled w/o support, the 6pt belts have no give, the 3pt you give some. Basically causing massive whiplash to your head
A HANS links the belt to your helmet to keep it upright in a collision.
Its worse with a helmet due to added weight
I use 3pt belts on the street for this reason.
The early cars are much lighter. My 71T is 2200 lbs in full street trim.
Lots of good advice here. you can see the cage build process and sunroof removal I underwent in my thread. A few things:
full cage on street, no way, unless something like RUF does, totally agree, this is why I only did a back half, and yes, we spent a lot of time getting the seat belt and rear hoop selection right. I'm not tall, but some are, and belt location and angles matter. We did build mine to PCA/NASA specs in the rear, so if I ever decide to do the front we can add it but given street car, nope.
Interior does have to come out
and you want to address other issues, like the stamped steel seat mount points, boxing those in for reinforcement.
Its not a good idea to run 6pt harnesses without a HANS. Read up on Atlanto-occipital dislocation and basal skull fractures.
Short story is, your heavy head, cannot be controlled w/o support, the 6pt belts have no give, the 3pt you give some. Basically causing massive whiplash to your head
A HANS links the belt to your helmet to keep it upright in a collision.
Its worse with a helmet due to added weight
I use 3pt belts on the street for this reason.
Fantastic advice and information. Thank you! Looks like I need to see if a fully integrated roll cage is doable. Otherwise, back half seems much wiser.
Maybe a much milder build at 1200kg gets 90% of the experience at less than 50% of the cost. The diminishing returns definitely apply here.
Not counting absolute performance, do you think there’s significant “feel” difference between 1200kg and 1050kg? I am slowly coming to terms that chasing that “last” 150kg is likely going to compromise street worthiness and cost an incremental $150K or more.
My 964 started off at 3000lbs, it weighs 2600lbs, i can definitely feel it, i can also feel it if a 200lb person is in the passenger seat on the track....
I did forget to mention I went with gutting my entire door and window assembly which saved a lot of weight. I used a slightly thicker acrylic in for the windows and they fit into the channels so I can easily raise and lower them. They stay in place but are as manual as you get. This also allowed me to push the cage into the door area so it is less constrictive. I also wouldn't drive this car on the street with the cage and belts. It would have been nice but a bit more expense to have it fitted in closer to the body but it is a track only car and I didn't see the need for the added expense. Although if I did it again I would probably do it.
My 964 started off at 3000lbs, it weighs 2600lbs, i can definitely feel it, i can also feel it if a 200lb person is in the passenger seat on the track....
What’s your take on fun street driving with a no rubber suspension setup like you have? Would you do it differently given your experience?
I did forget to mention I went with gutting my entire door and window assembly which saved a lot of weight. I used a slightly thicker acrylic in for the windows and they fit into the channels so I can easily raise and lower them. They stay in place but are as manual as you get. This also allowed me to push the cage into the door area so it is less constrictive. I also wouldn't drive this car on the street with the cage and belts. It would have been nice but a bit more expense to have it fitted in closer to the body but it is a track only car and I didn't see the need for the added expense. Although if I did it again I would probably do it.
Looks incredible! You wouldn’t drive it on the street even if the cage is fitted as close to the car body as possible, right?
Close to the body and covered with padding yes but using the 3 point harnesses. For this build it wasn't my intention since it is so harsh on the street but amazing on track. I went down the path of doing the cage to spec but honestly it is more for added safety and hopefully never needed. If I sell I won't get close to what I have into it especially the hours of labor. If the car isn't going to be raced and occasionally tracked then you might consider downsizing the tubing dia and not being so aggressive. In all my years of tracking these I have seen many incidents on track but very few where the cage was actually needed as intended. That is the big question and is up to you how far you want to carry through with safety. One of those necessary expenditures nobody wants to spend money on.
Other options are although I am not a huge fan and have one for sale is a safety devices cage that can be bolted in and out more easily than a fully welded cage or custom building something similar. This way you only have the roll bar when not tracking it.
What’s your take on fun street driving with a no rubber suspension setup like you have? Would you do it differently given your experience?
I really like my car, a lot. Those who have driven it like it too @mooty Unlike the early cars which I feel get really harsh with non-rubber suspensions, the more modern suspension of the 964 takes well to the solid links, so the damper choice and calibration / spring rates are the key. The car is very firm, but supple, and not jarring. I like it. Only change I'd make is moving to Ohlins TTX 2 ways.
That said, a lot of work went into dialing in the chassis, several different spring rate changes and lots of tweaks to the damping settings to get it feeling the way I like on the street, and usable (though not totally dialed for) the track.
Close to the body and covered with padding yes but using the 3 point harnesses. For this build it wasn't my intention since it is so harsh on the street but amazing on track. I went down the path of doing the cage to spec but honestly it is more for added safety and hopefully never needed. If I sell I won't get close to what I have into it especially the hours of labor. If the car isn't going to be raced and occasionally tracked then you might consider downsizing the tubing dia and not being so aggressive. In all my years of tracking these I have seen many incidents on track but very few where the cage was actually needed as intended. That is the big question and is up to you how far you want to carry through with safety. One of those necessary expenditures nobody wants to spend money on.
Other options are although I am not a huge fan and have one for sale is a safety devices cage that can be bolted in and out more easily than a fully welded cage or custom building something similar. This way you only have the roll bar when not tracking it.
Thanks for helping me think about this topic. How far away would you say is okay to have padded bars for street use with 3-point seatbelt?
Or in other words, would it be okay if the bars hug/touch the door panels and roof lines?
I really like my car, a lot. Those who have driven it like it too @mooty Unlike the early cars which I feel get really harsh with non-rubber suspensions, the more modern suspension of the 964 takes well to the solid links, so the damper choice and calibration / spring rates are the key. The car is very firm, but supple, and not jarring. I like it. Only change I'd make is moving to Ohlins TTX 2 ways.
That said, a lot of work went into dialing in the chassis, several different spring rate changes and lots of tweaks to the damping settings to get it feeling the way I like on the street, and usable (though not totally dialed for) the track.
Glad to hear you really like it! Joey would be my choice too. Do you think it’s feasible to do these tweaks remotely?
05-19-2020, 03:11 PM
