DerKrob

Hello all,

I've been lurking here for months, soaking up information like a sponge in preparations for a possible 964 purchase. The insight I've gained from you all is amazing (many thanks), and I would appreciate further insight given the following information about myself:

I live in Denver and currently drive an Audi TT Quattro Coupe. It's coming off lease in March, and I would like to replace it with a 964 as a daily driver. My commute is pretty short, and I would expect to put about 8k miles a year on the car. I've been drawn to the 964 because of it's value in terms of car for the money, especially considering that depreciation of this model is stabilizing. That and the fact that driving a Porsche is simply a great experience.

I have a few concerns about owning a 964, particularly in terms of unexpected maintenance. I have not been able to get a good handle on what I can expect to pay on average for yearly maintenance. I know this can vary quite a bit. I have a somewhat thick skin, and would be up for minor DIY repairs, but I cannot afford to get into a money pit.

I've read Adrian's book from cover to cover, and I feel I am armed with the knowledge to pick and find a good car. For some reason I am still undecided on whether to pursue. I would be looking for a car priced in the low to mid-20k range with reasonable miles.

Finally, here are my questions:
- Given my concerns, should I even be considering a 964?
- I am leaning towards a C2 even though I live in Denver. I think with good snow tires, and my relatively short commute I could manage in the winter here. Is this reasonable, or should I be looking for a C4?
- Will the potential cost of ownership be offset by the stabilization of depreciation enough to make this car a decent buy?

Sorry for being long-winded. Any other thoughts appreciated, and thanks once again.

Adam

BTW, this would be my first Porsche ownership experience.

C4TT

Well, I would say that at that price range, you may end up with a higher mileage car, which would translate into more frequent problems.
You would be better off spending a tad more for a younger car with less miles...

C4s are harder to find, but a nice advantage in poor weather, especially if you are used to driving an all wheel drive Audi... The C4 is also friendlier to novice drivers, since it decreases one's ability to swap ends mid turn. Coming from an Audi, the Porsche is quite different. I think the C4 would be a nice stepping stone to the world of Porsche...

At the same time, you probably know this, but don't be overly fooled by the older lines of the car. Many people think that the 964 is nearly identical to the ealier model 911, when actually 90% of what is under the skin is newer technology.

Whatever car you think of buying, find a Porsche specialized shop to go over the car, and do a Pre-sales inspection. This way you have a list of worn items, repairs, potential issues etc... You can also use this list as leverage in a negotiation...

Good luck!

Greg

Christer

Obviously I live in the UK, but the figures should have some relation to what you could expect in the US. Or at least get you thinking along the same lines. Here in the UK, it is possible to buy a a brand new VW Golf GTI or a bottomof the range BMW 3 series Cmpact model for the same amount of money as a decent 964, give or take. In the UK, you can expect a new car to have lost 50% of its value at 3 years old. Some models actually lose more and some less, but you get the picture. In other words in 3 years you have in the UK lost around £8000 or USD14000. I purchased my 964 just over 2 years ago, and in that time I have probably spent around £3500 (or USD5500) in maintenance, but this did include a new clutch on buying it and the PO gave me £1000 off to do that. So in another year, maybe I will have spent USD5000 total or will it be USD6000 or even USD8000? I don't think it will come to USD14000 somehow (well, modifications excluded of course).

I am 32 years old and have owned a lot of cars. Probably enough to have 1 for every year I have been driving (since 17) on average. Most people don't realise the money they throw away leasing or buying new cars and taking the depreciation hit. Almost everyone have been there and done that - but how many have added it up? I have, but I don't want to talk about it....

What you shoud bear in mind is that you will not be taking a very big hit on the depreciation, but you should keep some cash handy in case something goes wrong with your future 964 (and it will as they are coming up to 15 years of age now) .

I guess from what you say that you will have to borrow to buy the 964 in the first place? If so, then of course that can put it's own strain on the finances, and I would suggest driving something cheap until you have enough money to buy most if not all of it cash. That way, when things go wrong every so often you will have the cash reserves to sort the problem out. Especially if you use it as a daily driver, as it HAS to be fixed. If for some reason I was landed with a potentially huge bill then I could choose to leave the car on the drive as it is a weekend car.

PS: I hope you don't take my assumption re your financial status the wrong way - it was purely an assumption in order to get a point across should it be pertinent.

Cupcar#12

I thought i would throw in my 2 cents here.
The 964 is a great car and for winter driving the C4 would be the cat's meow with snow tires.

On the mainiance end of things - you can end up spending a ton of money on the wrong car, If it's not up to snuff. As with all things porsche they are more expensive to repair generally than say a honda of the same vintage. You will not have a warrenty and will basically be spending out of pocket for general maintiance, the routine service can get pricey, but you can learn to do most of it yourself (Valves, plugs, oil, etc) and save a ton - While these cars are not simple by any means with the right tools and the right resources (rennlist for instance, Adrian's book, the factory service manuels, etc) it can be done. This fact makes the 964 a great buy for me (That and the fact that i was nutty with my mainiance before i wrecked my car)
I would look at spending a bit more to get out of the pre 92 model year (where the best deals are), for the updated head gaskets and lower miles. spend some more up front and you will be happier. There is not a huge delta in price when looking a good car to to great -low miles one - but there is a huge $ delta when looking at the lower end of the market.
I would reserve the lower priced cars for non-daily driven rides and race cars where the maintiance is already in the cards.
if it was a race car i would go the other way - buy a pre-92 car and drive the crap out of it - if the heads start leaking - sell the motor and buy a new one - i wouldn't bother to rebuild it

adsc4s

I think you can get a pretty good mid mileage car for mid $20's. Keep up the search and good luck. The 964 is alot of car for the money. I'm not sure why you would shy away from a C4. Drive both.

RSAErick

Adam,
I certainly wouldn't shy away from a high mileage car. Not at all - just get one that has been well maintained with records, and get a PPI done. To tell you the truth, "maintaining" these cars is NOT that expensive. Really! In addition, my "high mileage" 964 has literally been one of the most reliable cars that I have ever owned.

Upgrading? Now that's expensive!

Personally, I would be looking for a C4 if you're going to be driving year 'round in Colorado. But that' just me, and you're obviously a smart guy - you're buying a 964!

Best of luck.

Erick

JoeW

I'm shopping too, Adam. I've been told by 3 sources I trust to expect about 800-1000/yr in maintenance (+gas/oil). In addition, recommended to save the same amount each year in an account to deal with major "surprises." J

JonSeigel

Terrific advice. I couldn't have stated it better. If you're worried about giant problems, late 964s are the way to go. You may have to be a little more patient bec. there aren't as many around as early 964s, but if you're really concerned about maintenance, late cars will be reassuring. You should be able to find one in your price range if you're patient.

Good luck.

Jeff Midili

Welcome!

Naturally, we're all going to tell you to buy a 964! And please ask us our opinions on the one(s) you are considering.

My one question for you is, what would you be comparing the 964 to? Your TT is coming off lease, would you buy that? What are your other options?

I don't really buy into the 'depreciation stablization' offsetting maintence costs thought; the problem with maintenance is that you have to have the money 'right now.' Depreciation is only an issue if you are 'underwater' on your loan when it's time to sell and the odds of that happening on any car more than 6 years old is much less probable than on a new car or leased car.

The fact that you have read up so much before a purchase puts you in an excellent position to make a knowledgable buy. It may require patience, so don't find yourself without the TT and being forced into buying whatever 964 happens to be available....

Just my thoughts, hope they were helpful.

Jeff

joey bagadonuts

Unless your heart is set on a RWD car, I'd recommend you simply buy the best-maintained 964 you can afford regardless of the number of driven wheels.

DerKrob

Thanks to all for the responses... This forum continues to amaze me.

Christer - I didn't take your assumption the wrong way. I will indeed be financing some of the purchase price, probably about half, over a couple of years at a really low rate. It's definitely something to consider for total cost of ownership.

Jeff - I would only buy the TT if it was a car that I planned to keep for more than 3 years or so. I really want a Porsche within that timeframe so I think being rid of the TT is the right move. Plus, I have had some electrical and transmission issues with the TT (less than 30k miles). All were fixed under warranty, but to try and sell later in private may require some tough explaining to a potential buyer. The only other buying option I've considered is in line with Christer's suggestion of buying something really cheap and waiting on the Porsche. I just might do that. I also have some breathing room since one of my friends may loan me an '87 Carrera while I'm looking.

Re: C4 - I'm not shying away from that option. Just aren't as many available in my range that look like good options. The understeer issue is also a consideration but not a deal breaker - it can be dealt with.

Adam

garrett376

Adam,
The C4's understeer should not be an issue... and certianly not a deal breaker! The understeer is an issue if you're blasting through a corner too fast - definitely too fast for the street since you'd hate to either get a ticket or crash - then you'd really have a big bill to pay!

I think you hear about the understeer stuff from the track dudes on this forum. You're not going to race the daily driver, are you? I used to do that with my 65 911 - it was my only car for about 6 years! And believe me, a little tire-scrubbing understeer is much nicer than crazy "snap" oversteer like in a short wheelbase early 911 (and worse on cold race tires!)!!!!

I think that the C4 is best daily driver - it will handle better, especially in snow which you'll see where you live. I live where there's no snow, but it sure is fun to blast around a corner when it's slippery and the car sticks like glue!

Here's what happens with oversteer - check out all those tire marks coming out of turn 9!!! Ouch! Not my rubber!

delhi

how about a late model carrera 3.2? they are relatively less stuff to break compared to a 964.

springer3

Here is one case study (mine):

I looked at dozens of advertisements in the local paper, eBay, and www.traderonline.com. I talked to over a dozen sellers, and looked at and drove only four cars - all 964s, and all priced from the mid 20s to low 30s. High mileage was 78,000, and low mileage was 23,000. All looked near perfect cosmetically, and all drove very nicely. None had any evidence of fluid leaks. One had evidence of collision repair. The owner denied the car had ever been wrecked, and claimed the paint was factory original. The car was 12 years old, and the paint had zero rock chips or damage of any type. The windshield was pocked with small rock hits. Upon further inspection, the crossmember supporting the rear of the engine was new, and the welding looked suspect. NEXT!

Purchased 1992 C2 in September 2002 for $27,500, with 42,000 miles - and just out of the 40,000 mile service (a $4,200 bill, but it included new clutch and flywheel, new power steering pump, new brakes). Zero collision history, well maintained, adult-driven car.

I just turned over 50 K miles. The only failures have been to the spoiler controller, which was a DIY fix (<$1 cost, but a lot of time), and the airbag warning lamp, which came on a few weeks ago, and is still burning. This is a common problem, and the fixes are described in Adrian's book and elsewhere.

I spent $800 on new shocks, another $1000 on new tires/alignment, and $400 on much needed stereo speaker upgrades. The car looks and drives like new, and total investment is still below $30,000. The car rides much better now than when I bought it.

I would never buy a used car at the very top of my budget. Alway put aside a war chest for upgrades and repairs to bring the car up to a standard you will be happy with. The key to getting a good deal on a used car is to know the market well enough to spot a deal when you see it. The best deals come as a result of divorce or financial distress. It seems a shame to profit from other's misery, but remember you did not cause it, and someone else will be happy to step in if you do not. Great deals sell within 24 hours. Good deals sell within a week. The deal I got I consider "fair". I got a great car at market price. If you see the same car advertised for several weeks, it is a dog or it is overpriced. To get a good or great deal, you have to be active, and you have to be willing to move fast with a deposit when you find the right car. You may get a better deal in the upper 20s for a car that needs nothing. As you go lower in price, plan on setting aside cash to bring the car up to a standard you will be happy with. Cosmetics affect value more than mechanical condition. You can fix mechanical ails, but a ratty interior and banged up bodywork are very difficult to get back to a good standard. Ratty cosmetics usually go together with shabby maintenance, so avoid nasty cars at any price. Be very careful about cars with collision history - most collision damage is not repaired properly, and you will have problems with water leaks, rust, and suspension alignment. The best looking 964 I looked at had bad repair welds on the crossmember that supports the rear of the engine. Think about what would happen to your investment if one of those welds failed, any you dropped your engine.

Randall G.

Hey Adam,

It will be hard to spend more maintaining a 964 than you're likely (for example) spending on your TT lease. Or, buying a new car every 5 years. I suspect your lease payment, with taxes and interest, are close to $500--including whatever cap reduction you made. That's $6k/year, $12k every two years, etc. As Christer and others have pointed out, a lot of money slipping away surreptitiously. And, that's a for a TT--nice car, but not a (semi) exotic 911. Which cost around twice as much as a TT when new.

A 964 purchased today should depreciate very slowly. The old thumb-rule I heard many years ago it that the 911 depreciation curve levels off when its value drops to about $20k. Not an exact rule, but pretty close. $20k is right about where the 964 is now.

If I ever sell my 964, it won't be because it's cheaper to buy a (other than super-econo) new car. It will be because I'm tired of being bothered with repairs and general upkeep.

I think $2k/year is a reasonable starting point for maintenance on a daily driven car. The money comes fast, especially if you don't perform the work yourself. $600 major service, $100x4 for brake rotors (which wear out periodically), $500 for installing a new fuel pump, $500 to replace the fading rear tail-lights & center reflector, $200 for new caps and rotors, etc. (general, not exact prices).

The upside is, the 964 gives you a major(!) payback in pleasure, in return for your putting up with (and paying for) its not-quite-a-Camry maintenance requirements. Without a doubt, it's like no other car on the road.

Now, suppose I would be leery of making payments on a 10+ year old 911, while simultaneously paying for maintenance. It might be a strain. Guess only you know if you have the resources to do so. Of course, once paid for, you're only focusing on maintenance costs.

As others have already said, make sure you get a well inspected example. Deferred maintenance on these cars costs a whole lot to catch up on. Not just talking major components here, I'm talking climate control units, heater fans, worn shocks, broken foglights, etc.

Best of luck!