springer3

Porsche's reputation will be defined in large part by how well their cars perform on reliability and resale value. Adrian's new book, affordable factory manuals, and the incredible support and generosity of this board mean that anyone who can read and operate tools can afford to keep a 964 running like new.

A huge blemish on this otherwise ideal situation is the obsolete pre-ODB diagnostic system. I have been trying for 17 months now, but I still don't have a good answer for resetting the codes and warning lamps. There is simply no affordable way to do it. You can get a good OBD II reader for barely over $100, but for the less capable 964 system, you can't find a used Hammer at any price, and the cheapest aftermarket reader is over $3,500. Had I been aware of this problem, I would certainly have tilted towards a pre - 1989 or post 1995 model to avoid this system. I expect 964 resale values already reflect this problem.

Porsche or Bosch could fix this overnight by releasing the now secret specifications for the diagnostic system. I don't know if there is a way to apply pressure at Bosch or Porsche, but I would be happy to do my bit if anyone wants to try. Keeping this information secret is illegal in the US for new cars sold here. Last November Porsche was forced to release the information for the OBD II cars. I don't think anyone would by mystified if we complained about keeping the 964 specifications secret more than 10 years after the system was officially obsolete. All 964s are now past their 10 th birthday, and each one is a rolling advertisement for Porsche's latest offering. Surely they will be willing to recognize our efforts to bolster their reputation. There can't possibly be much profit in 964 code readers, but there is huge potential profit if improved reputation for customer support results in better new car sales.

Lorenfb

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, even if you had the input & output
electricals, i.e. the "K" and "W" commands and the DME responses,
I doubt that the market for a tester would justify the product.

I estimated a market for a Hammer replacement at about 500 to 1000 units.
Assuming a retail price of $300 to $500 per unit, that's not a great starting
point for a new business plan. The per unit direct costs would be $100 to
$150 per unit, and than doesn't leave much to recover R&D and continued
overhead.

Have Fun
Loren
'88 3,2

Adrian

When Porsche switched from the Hammer to the new KTS500 system they destroyed all their hammers, leads, adapters etc. BMW did the same. Only Opel offered them for sale to the market. No good for us without the software modules.
The current situation will not change without some diplomacy and some luck. Give it some time.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

JasonAndreas

Unplug the battery

Purchasing the 19pin connector that plugs into the diagnostic port costs $479.90USD, part #1 684 465 192. Porsche may have destroyed their supply but I know Bosch hasn't. There might be 10-20 left and if you order one it will take 12 weeks to get it. If you were to have 1000 connectors custom made it would still cost you more for just the connector than it would for one of the cheaper OBD2 code readers that you're talking about.

The person to contact at Porsche USA was Brad Stott. I have no clue if he is still involved.

It is not illegal to withhold diagnostic information. ALMOST all of the automotive manufacturers agreed to release diagnostic information to prevent legislation from being to signed into law in the USA. Porsche never signed the letter of intent to cooperate and participate in the NASTF initiative so they don't have to release anything.

ian c - u.k

resale values affected by the fact amatuers cannot play with the cars electronics !!!!!
utter tosh .
if i was in the market for another 964 , i would shy away from one that was owned by somebody with the facility to alter all the fault codes !!!

just take it to a dealer / specialist !!!

springer3

Jason:

I wish it was as easy as disconnecting the battery, but some (all??) codes are in EPROM, and survive any attempt to reboot of the system.

Just to clarify, it is not illegal to keep information secret, but is is illegal to sell a car in the US market without releasing all emissions-related diagnostic codes under the OBD II protocol. But we quibble - the point I was making is that it is bad for Porsche's reputation to have a policy that squeezes the independents and DIYs trying to maintain an obsolete system. Dealers seldom welcome 10-year old cars, so why protect the information?


Ian:

There is no "playing" with the electronics, any more than we are dickering with our computer's electronics when we post on the Rennlist. It is communications only. If you clear fault codes without solving the underlying problem, the fault will still be there, and will be detected and reported. It would be nice to be able to clear the code to confirm that the fault was repaired. It would also be nice to be able to use the diagnostic features of the system.

As far as the advise to take it to the dealer, my PO used the dealer and left the receipts to show he got thoroughly hosed every time he went. I think that is why he finally sold the car. I can afford this car only because I plan to avoid the dealer's service department. I hope things are better where you live, but I see very few dealer-maintained cars that show a good standard of workmanship. In spite of eye-popping repair receipts (the 40 k service cost $US4,200), there were missing fasteners, careless damage not corrected, and other examples of work improperly done. There are also examples of problems overlooked that should have been corrected. There are tickets over the years that mention resetting the airbag lamp. The lamp is back on now. The dealer clearly did not fix it properly. I plan to fix the underlying problem(s), but I am not happy about being forced to go back to the dealer to reset the fault code.

There are certainly idiots attempting DIY repairs, but I have never seen or even heard of one on that screwed up a 964. I have seen numerous examples, and read of many others (on this list) where incompetents and worse at repair shops cost the car owner expensive and needless grief.

If you avoid a car because it was DIY-maintained, so much the better. The very best cars will be available for those that understand and appreciate the care given to make the car the best it can be.

springer3

Jason:

One more thing: I doubt the 19-pin connector is custom built. I bet it is available on the aftermarket. I have not looked for one, but what is the point if you can't use it anyway?

Regards

Cupcar#12

Baum tools makes a IScan that it say's can read and reset all the codes from 1988 to present - you have to buy the plug as well.
I was checking into this b/f i wrecked, looks good though - i would call them and check it out
http://tools.baumtools.com/index.jsp?menu=por

Cupcar#12

more info from thier site
The ULTIMATE DIAGNOSTIC LIVE DATA SCANNER
for Factory OBD I and OBD-II
Porsche models 1990 to 2003.
Systems include: Engine, Transmission, ABS, PSM, SRS/Airbag, PDAS/PDS (928), Alarm and Climate Control.

Live data, activate components such as ABS pumps and engine, pull and clear fault codes. A lifesaver for the Porsche shop that can no longer find a KTS300 for pre '95 cars and cannot afford the PST2 for 1995 and later cars.

http://tools.baumtools.com/pdf/iscan_porsche_apps.pdf
according to the above PDF it will read and set the following on the 964
DME/ABS/Tip/Alarm/SRS/AC-Heat
Pretty much what you nead for an affordable hammer replacement (and you can use it on your other cars as well (BMW,MB, etc)
i think it is 500.00 or so (probably more)

GMS

The Baum tool is considerably more than $500. You need the scanner and then the Porsche cartridge and cables. Expect to pay around $4500 by the time you have all the pieces. Most independent shops are either have the Bosch KTS 300, the PST2 or are waiting for the new PST3, which is meant to be available this month.

I'm not suprised that Porsche decided to trash all the old "hammers", it seems typical of their attitude to providing accurate, readable service information and support to anyone or any organisation that isn't an official dealer. Of course, the fact that the vast majority of out-of-warranty vehicles never go near the dealerships seems to have slipped passed Porsche managment.

JasonAndreas

I thought the only system with non-volatile memory was the airbag controller. The only other system I haven't been inside of is the tiptronic controller

There is nothing available aftermarket. Minimum order quantities from Amp are 5000 and they won't sell (or tell) you anything unless you have written permission from Bosch AND Porsche.


If anyone knows of Bosch hammer (or iScan) in the New England (USA) area and wouldn't mind someone coming over to use it with a logic analyzer and a laptop for 6-12 hours than please PM me.

PJ911C2

I'd love to have one iSCAN in my garage if it can read OBD I for my 964 and only costs me $500.

Finally I found it's developed in Taiwan so I contacted the producer directly that they quote me $1,000 for the Scanner base unit and another $1,000 for the Porsche software, cable costs $75 as well. More than $2,000 is not worth to my weekend DIY job especially I may need to pay another $1,000 for new software if I like to use it in other OBD II system vehicle. Should be good to maintenance shop only at that cost.

springer3

I have been looking for a used Hammer with a max budget of $1300 with zero success. I appreciate the clarificatin on the connector and the non-violatile memory. I am relatively new to the 964. The only lamp I have a problem with is the airbag warning, which does not appear to reset on power down.

I will perform the clock repair procedure, and clean the contacts on the crash sensors, and then I am in search of a shop that can reset the airbag lamp.

GMS

Actually, it's not the diagnostic equipment that is the problem, it's the long term availability of the control units.