Sharper steering?
11-05-2017, 01:52 PM
#1
Sharper steering?
Hi All:
I love my 964, but I have to admit that the steering is less sharp than my previous 997s. It’s funny, my 964 tracks well and initial turn-in is decent, but then it gets vague about 5 degrees off center (presumably as the suspension loads? Dunno). I’m having the shocks replaced as they’re just damn old, but I thought I might shop for an upgrade while I’m at it. I am NOT interested in going to 993 uprights or anything like that, and in fact I’m not interested in lowering the car either. I thought about replacing the inner tie rods with either new OEM, perhaps getting the Elephant Racing bump steer kit as it has a solid inner tie rod. I will NOT track the car, I’m just looking for sharper, more responsive steering. I know it’s not the tires as I just put a fresh set of MPSS on and the car is aligned to factory specs.
So, what are my best options? ERP bump steer kit? OEM tie rod replacements and maybe some different alignment settings? I think FVD offers solid inner tie rods as well?
Thanks!
Pete
I love my 964, but I have to admit that the steering is less sharp than my previous 997s. It’s funny, my 964 tracks well and initial turn-in is decent, but then it gets vague about 5 degrees off center (presumably as the suspension loads? Dunno). I’m having the shocks replaced as they’re just damn old, but I thought I might shop for an upgrade while I’m at it. I am NOT interested in going to 993 uprights or anything like that, and in fact I’m not interested in lowering the car either. I thought about replacing the inner tie rods with either new OEM, perhaps getting the Elephant Racing bump steer kit as it has a solid inner tie rod. I will NOT track the car, I’m just looking for sharper, more responsive steering. I know it’s not the tires as I just put a fresh set of MPSS on and the car is aligned to factory specs.
So, what are my best options? ERP bump steer kit? OEM tie rod replacements and maybe some different alignment settings? I think FVD offers solid inner tie rods as well?
Thanks!
Pete
11-06-2017, 07:30 AM
#2
Pro
My 2c worth.. if you don't plan on tracking the car.
Get all the front bushes replaced with new rubber or urethane. Perhaps a steering brace from Rothsport, a good alignment closer to RS specs and call it done.
The new suspension itself will transform the car and give you a more precise feel.
Regards,
Neil
Get all the front bushes replaced with new rubber or urethane. Perhaps a steering brace from Rothsport, a good alignment closer to RS specs and call it done.
The new suspension itself will transform the car and give you a more precise feel.
Regards,
Neil
11-06-2017, 12:07 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
This was talked about in a previous thread. The 964 steering feels lazy for a few reasons: worn rubber bushings and worn shocks. It will never feel like a 997 though. I have fully suspension built GT3 and 964 and while he 964 is really really good, the GT3 is like a precision instrument, it's just 20 years of chassis evolution you can't replicate with bolt ons on a 964.
If the car was 100% street I would:
1. replace the shocks
2. replace steering rack bushings with urethane ones
3. steering rack brace
4. replace steering tie rod inners with ERP monoball design - this is were a lot of the slop comes from
5. Replace the outers, if you can use stock, they are ok, they are solid enough. ERP is an option
6. Look at your A-arm bushings, sway bar bushings, and the upright lower mount. If any are worn, replace. You can go monoball, or replace with rubber. I'd not both with anything middle ground.
7. Align the car proper
Other things that will help with feel and not make car too hardcore:
--rear engine mounts
--evaluate rear a arm and spring plate bushings - replace if needed
--sway bar mounts
If the car was 100% street I would:
1. replace the shocks
2. replace steering rack bushings with urethane ones
3. steering rack brace
4. replace steering tie rod inners with ERP monoball design - this is were a lot of the slop comes from
5. Replace the outers, if you can use stock, they are ok, they are solid enough. ERP is an option
6. Look at your A-arm bushings, sway bar bushings, and the upright lower mount. If any are worn, replace. You can go monoball, or replace with rubber. I'd not both with anything middle ground.
7. Align the car proper
Other things that will help with feel and not make car too hardcore:
--rear engine mounts
--evaluate rear a arm and spring plate bushings - replace if needed
--sway bar mounts
11-06-2017, 01:52 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
This is the same characteristic the cars had when brand new, from my experience mostly from the excessive caster in the front that leads to that "dead" feel in the middle of the corner. I wouldnt get too crazy chasing a bunch of expensive hard parts until I really thought about how to tune the car a bit around your basic needs of ride height, bump compliance etc.
11-06-2017, 05:51 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Trending Topics
11-07-2017, 02:23 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
https://www.elephantracing.com/porsc...-rods-for-964/
11-09-2017, 11:31 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
I’ve driven both the tarett and the elephant tie rods back to back. They were 993s so a bit different than your 964, but I can still give you my impressions and maybe it’ll help.
Going from the rubber tie rods to any solid tie rod is a significant improvement. I was chasing suspension slop in my car and Spyerx’s advice is right on target. To get the feeling I wanted I had to replace control arm bushings, then the ball joints, then the rack bushings and tie rods. Finally my front end felt tight, but my rear was suddenly obviously loose, so I had to replace all bushings and balljoints in the rear as well. Your rear suspension is less complicated, so you don’t have to do as much to tighten it up luckily.
As for the comparison. I think the tarett tie rods are fantastic and you can mate them to your own wheel carriers if you use OEM outers (which I’d replace at the same time). If you aren’t planning on much lowering, that’s a great way to go.
The ER tie-rods are nice because you get both outer and inner in one package and it works with stock carriers as-is. The bump steer correction does seem to work, the car I drove was RS height and I didn’t feel any bump steer. Steering felt nicely alive in my hands, though the ‘feel’ was a little different. Maybe a little lighter? Not sure, it was subtle, but the geometry is changed so you may feel that. Overall I liked it but am very happy with my choice of tarett and wouldn’t want it any other way.
If you want to read more about my impressions on that drive: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...monoballs.html
If you want to read more about my impressions of 993 vs 997 driving: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...pressions.html
Going from the rubber tie rods to any solid tie rod is a significant improvement. I was chasing suspension slop in my car and Spyerx’s advice is right on target. To get the feeling I wanted I had to replace control arm bushings, then the ball joints, then the rack bushings and tie rods. Finally my front end felt tight, but my rear was suddenly obviously loose, so I had to replace all bushings and balljoints in the rear as well. Your rear suspension is less complicated, so you don’t have to do as much to tighten it up luckily.
As for the comparison. I think the tarett tie rods are fantastic and you can mate them to your own wheel carriers if you use OEM outers (which I’d replace at the same time). If you aren’t planning on much lowering, that’s a great way to go.
The ER tie-rods are nice because you get both outer and inner in one package and it works with stock carriers as-is. The bump steer correction does seem to work, the car I drove was RS height and I didn’t feel any bump steer. Steering felt nicely alive in my hands, though the ‘feel’ was a little different. Maybe a little lighter? Not sure, it was subtle, but the geometry is changed so you may feel that. Overall I liked it but am very happy with my choice of tarett and wouldn’t want it any other way.
If you want to read more about my impressions on that drive: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...monoballs.html
If you want to read more about my impressions of 993 vs 997 driving: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...pressions.html
Last edited by Tlaloc75; 11-09-2017 at 02:09 PM.
11-09-2017, 01:54 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
I’ve driven both the tarett and the elephant tie rods back to back. They were 993s so a bit different than your 964, but I can still give you my impressions and maybe it’ll help.
Going from the rubber tie rods to any solid tie rod is a significant improvement. I was chasing suspension slop in my car and Spyerx’s advice is right on target. To get the feeling I wanted I had to replace control arm bushings, then the ball joints, then the rack bushings and tie rods. Finally my front end felt tight, but my rear was suddenly obviously loose, so I had to replace all bushings and balljoints in the rear as well. Your rear suspension is less complicated, so you don’t have to do as much to tighten it up luckily.
As for the comparison. I think the tarret tie rods are fantastic and you can mate them to your own wheel carriers if you use OEM outers (which I’d replace at the same time). If you aren’t planning on much lowering, that’s a great way to go.
The ER tie-rods are nice because you get both outer and inner in one package and it works with stock carriers as-is. The bump steer correction does seem to work, the car I drove was RS height and I didn’t feel any bump steer. Steering felt nicely alive in my hands, though the ‘feel’ was a little different. Maybe a little lighter? Not sure, it was subtle, but the geometry is changed so you may feel that. Overall I liked it but am very happy with my choice of tarret and wouldn’t want it any other way.
If you want to read more about my impressions on that drive: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...monoballs.html
If you want to read more about my impressions of 993 vs 997 driving: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...pressions.html
Going from the rubber tie rods to any solid tie rod is a significant improvement. I was chasing suspension slop in my car and Spyerx’s advice is right on target. To get the feeling I wanted I had to replace control arm bushings, then the ball joints, then the rack bushings and tie rods. Finally my front end felt tight, but my rear was suddenly obviously loose, so I had to replace all bushings and balljoints in the rear as well. Your rear suspension is less complicated, so you don’t have to do as much to tighten it up luckily.
As for the comparison. I think the tarret tie rods are fantastic and you can mate them to your own wheel carriers if you use OEM outers (which I’d replace at the same time). If you aren’t planning on much lowering, that’s a great way to go.
The ER tie-rods are nice because you get both outer and inner in one package and it works with stock carriers as-is. The bump steer correction does seem to work, the car I drove was RS height and I didn’t feel any bump steer. Steering felt nicely alive in my hands, though the ‘feel’ was a little different. Maybe a little lighter? Not sure, it was subtle, but the geometry is changed so you may feel that. Overall I liked it but am very happy with my choice of tarret and wouldn’t want it any other way.
If you want to read more about my impressions on that drive: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...monoballs.html
If you want to read more about my impressions of 993 vs 997 driving: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...pressions.html
Thank you! I think in that case I will go with the taretts. By the way (since you're semi local), you should come out and join us in the Silver Sage region for an event next year if you're up for a bit of a road trip. For Oktoberfast we get people from OR and WA for the event, and I think we had one from AZ this year. Would love to see a bigger 964/993 presence out here some time!
11-09-2017, 02:08 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
That would be fun, I'll check out your event calendar and see if anything will work.
Another thing I just thought of. When you pull the shocks, be sure to check your mounts carefully. Slop in the mounts could contribute to handling problems under load. When I did mine, the fronts were in OK visual shape and the rears were cracked through. I replaced both under the assumption that all of the 20 year old rubber in the suspension is suspect even if it looks OK visually.
Another thing I just thought of. When you pull the shocks, be sure to check your mounts carefully. Slop in the mounts could contribute to handling problems under load. When I did mine, the fronts were in OK visual shape and the rears were cracked through. I replaced both under the assumption that all of the 20 year old rubber in the suspension is suspect even if it looks OK visually.
11-10-2017, 04:15 PM
#13
Any one have experience with the FVD inner rods or are the Tarretts the way to go? https://www.fvd.net/us-en/9643470580...-monoball.html
11-10-2017, 05:02 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
Any one have experience with the FVD inner rods or are the Tarretts the way to go? https://www.fvd.net/us-en/9643470580...-monoball.html
11-10-2017, 05:06 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Great thread. Learning a lot!
Nick reviewed them in this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...es-all-in.html
Any one have experience with the FVD inner rods or are the Tarretts the way to go? https://www.fvd.net/us-en/9643470580...-monoball.html
Nick reviewed them in this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...es-all-in.html