Attention RS America Owners is your car seam welded?
12-05-2003, 04:27 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Attention RS America Owners is your car seam welded?
I would like to know if there are really any seam welded RS America cars that came from the factory as such.
Pictured below are the seam welds that one would look for, the easiest to see are those at the shock tower in the first photo behind the air cleaner. You can see the beads of weld at the joint in the shock tower just below the top.
The second photo shows the brace that is added to the rear stabilizer bar mount and this can clearly be seen if the car is put on a hoist.
The other seam welds in the last photo are above the transmission and are covered with white putty in the photo.
If your RS America has any of these could you post your serial number, it's the last 4 digits of your VIN number. Also does your car have rolled fender lips. Thanks
Pictured below are the seam welds that one would look for, the easiest to see are those at the shock tower in the first photo behind the air cleaner. You can see the beads of weld at the joint in the shock tower just below the top.
The second photo shows the brace that is added to the rear stabilizer bar mount and this can clearly be seen if the car is put on a hoist.
The other seam welds in the last photo are above the transmission and are covered with white putty in the photo.
If your RS America has any of these could you post your serial number, it's the last 4 digits of your VIN number. Also does your car have rolled fender lips. Thanks
12-06-2003, 11:25 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Since I am not getting any replies in the affirmative, could you post your serial number if you find your RS America is NOT seam welded. Thanks.
12-06-2003, 03:01 PM
#3
Instructor
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bob:
The RSA is stuck in the garage due to the snow. I'll pull her out and take a look in a few days.
My car is number 20 and has rolled fender lips.
EDIT (added info) -- The car also has red crayon RS markings on engine.
marc
The RSA is stuck in the garage due to the snow. I'll pull her out and take a look in a few days.
My car is number 20 and has rolled fender lips.
EDIT (added info) -- The car also has red crayon RS markings on engine.
marc
Last edited by marc 1xx1; 12-06-2003 at 09:02 PM.
12-06-2003, 03:37 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
My car is in the shop at the moment, but from memory mine has the same putty. I was also told by someone at the track that the first ?25?? or so were designated to be cup cars and were seam welded.
My car is ooo6 and has rolled fender lips.
My car is ooo6 and has rolled fender lips.
12-06-2003, 06:27 PM
#6
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pa.
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Greetings Bob,
Just an idea with this thread. Why not poll for rolled lips, seam welding, and RS markings on the cam covers with the serial number and date of manufacture. I do not want to start another riot on this topic but it would be a good chance while RSA owners are looking to find some corolation if any.
From the cars I have seen you will find Rolled lips on all of the 92 718 and some early 9XXX serial number cars as well. I do not think you will find any seam welding. These should also be the only RSAs with the infamous RS markings. As an aside can you post a picture of the cam covers on your Cup USA car so others can see the RS markings.
My present RSA #9264 was built in December and has none of the above.
Thanks.
Best,
Don
P.S. I think the easiest way to check for the seam welds is the shock tower as it is easy to see and obvious if it is there or not.
Just an idea with this thread. Why not poll for rolled lips, seam welding, and RS markings on the cam covers with the serial number and date of manufacture. I do not want to start another riot on this topic but it would be a good chance while RSA owners are looking to find some corolation if any.
From the cars I have seen you will find Rolled lips on all of the 92 718 and some early 9XXX serial number cars as well. I do not think you will find any seam welding. These should also be the only RSAs with the infamous RS markings. As an aside can you post a picture of the cam covers on your Cup USA car so others can see the RS markings.
My present RSA #9264 was built in December and has none of the above.
Thanks.
Best,
Don
P.S. I think the easiest way to check for the seam welds is the shock tower as it is easy to see and obvious if it is there or not.
12-07-2003, 04:05 AM
#7
Addict
Lead Rennlist
Technical Advisor
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Lead Rennlist
Technical Advisor
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Dear Cupcar,
Might I make a suggestion. Under the dash of your Cup car should be a body number. Have a look and try and find it.
Then post the number and ask if anyone with a RSA has a similar number or at least find out what the body numbers of the RSA are. This might help. This number has no other use and cannot be cross referenced to anything but it might help in isolating certain body assemblies. I do not know what the results will be (body number does not match serial number either) but it might be worth a try.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
Might I make a suggestion. Under the dash of your Cup car should be a body number. Have a look and try and find it.
Then post the number and ask if anyone with a RSA has a similar number or at least find out what the body numbers of the RSA are. This might help. This number has no other use and cannot be cross referenced to anything but it might help in isolating certain body assemblies. I do not know what the results will be (body number does not match serial number either) but it might be worth a try.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
Trending Topics
12-08-2003, 12:57 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The first RSA's were model year 1993 cars built beginning in January 1992 which was unusual since Porsche normally begins production of the next model year after August. These RSA's built between January and August 1992 have an 8 as the 14th digit of the VIN which is the first number of the serial number. All other RSA cars built after August 1992 have a 9 as the 14th digit.
An RSA is a normal C2 chassis with the European RS conversion work orders for the car's interior carried out to eliminate the upholstery in the rear.
Since the 1992 European RS was being built with rolled fenders and seam welding between January and August 1992 at the same time as the "8" series serial numbered RSA's were, I think it is possible a few RSA's may have been built with more of the work orders for the European RS carried out, rolled fenders it seems for sure, possibly even seam welds.
The European RS stopped production in August 1992 as it was a MY 1992 car only.
The thought that there may have been an extra American Cup chassis (the American Cup chassis is a seam welded Euro RS chassis with an airbag dash) or two lying around that ended up as an RSA may have credibility since the last of the American Cups were built in Nov/Dec 1991 just before the RSA began production.
I have checked several 8 and 9 series serial number cars personally and have found no seam welds, #8045 has checked in here without seam welds. I looked at 8223 and it had fender lips rolled by the owner, not by factory.
FORKLIFT, we await you looking at #8006, marc 1xx1 get 8020 out of the snowbank, if seam welded and braced, photos please if possible!!!!
An RSA is a normal C2 chassis with the European RS conversion work orders for the car's interior carried out to eliminate the upholstery in the rear.
Since the 1992 European RS was being built with rolled fenders and seam welding between January and August 1992 at the same time as the "8" series serial numbered RSA's were, I think it is possible a few RSA's may have been built with more of the work orders for the European RS carried out, rolled fenders it seems for sure, possibly even seam welds.
The European RS stopped production in August 1992 as it was a MY 1992 car only.
The thought that there may have been an extra American Cup chassis (the American Cup chassis is a seam welded Euro RS chassis with an airbag dash) or two lying around that ended up as an RSA may have credibility since the last of the American Cups were built in Nov/Dec 1991 just before the RSA began production.
I have checked several 8 and 9 series serial number cars personally and have found no seam welds, #8045 has checked in here without seam welds. I looked at 8223 and it had fender lips rolled by the owner, not by factory.
FORKLIFT, we await you looking at #8006, marc 1xx1 get 8020 out of the snowbank, if seam welded and braced, photos please if possible!!!!
Last edited by Cupcar; 12-08-2003 at 03:10 PM.
12-08-2003, 03:18 PM
#12
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pa.
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Greetings,
I owned 020. Since it is Marc's now I will let him reply but I know it did not have the tow hook brace or safety harness mounts which are in place in a seam welded tub. I owned #060. It had rolled fenders and no bracing at least for the tow hook and safety harness mounts. I also owned #110 same as above. I suppose some of the NGT conversion steps could have been done such as the welding. I just wish I could have these cars lined up at once to check.
I agree with you Bob, since these cars were being built around the same time as the Carrera RS some sharing may have gone on. That has been my contention with the RS marked engines that also showed up in the early RSAs (Same markings as the Carrera RS and Cup engines). Later RSAs have none of these shared Carrera RS features or markings.
I have also seen early 9 series cars with the rolled fenders too. I am surprised to hear 8223 did not have rolled fenders from the factory. Any time I have seen an 8 series car it had the rolled fenders.
Guys who are checking, Please look under the back of your car behind the heat shields for the muffler. On the cam covers check for RS markings. They are on both sides not just the right side. Perhaps someone can post a picture of this. My present RSA is a later one without any markings ect. Thanks.
Best,
Don
I owned 020. Since it is Marc's now I will let him reply but I know it did not have the tow hook brace or safety harness mounts which are in place in a seam welded tub. I owned #060. It had rolled fenders and no bracing at least for the tow hook and safety harness mounts. I also owned #110 same as above. I suppose some of the NGT conversion steps could have been done such as the welding. I just wish I could have these cars lined up at once to check.
I agree with you Bob, since these cars were being built around the same time as the Carrera RS some sharing may have gone on. That has been my contention with the RS marked engines that also showed up in the early RSAs (Same markings as the Carrera RS and Cup engines). Later RSAs have none of these shared Carrera RS features or markings.
I have also seen early 9 series cars with the rolled fenders too. I am surprised to hear 8223 did not have rolled fenders from the factory. Any time I have seen an 8 series car it had the rolled fenders.
Guys who are checking, Please look under the back of your car behind the heat shields for the muffler. On the cam covers check for RS markings. They are on both sides not just the right side. Perhaps someone can post a picture of this. My present RSA is a later one without any markings ect. Thanks.
Best,
Don
12-08-2003, 04:31 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hi RENNMAN-
Thanks for your contribution to this thread. I forgot about looking in the trunk for the tow hook reinforcement welded in front of the car.
As for the "RS" on the cam covers, I am not sure what this really means. Maybe it was an easy way to identify engines installed in an RSA with the right hand camshaft modified to delete the power steering drive. The engine in an RSA is identified as a type M64/01 as a normal Carrera 2 and is otherwise identical except for this camshaft modification.
The Euro RS/Cup engine is a type M64/03 with selected pistons and cylinders and a single fan belt drive as well as the special right side camshaft as in the RSA.
If the engine in an RSA with "RS" written on the chain housing is really a Euro RS/Cup M64/03 but with the fan drive of an M64/01 engine, I think it would have M64/03 clearly stamped on the engine block above the right side chain housing forward of the engine serial number as in photo below. I believe this number is stamped at the time the short block assembled, and the pistons and cylinders selected for the short block assembly are the critical difference between the M64/01 and M64/03.
Thanks for your contribution to this thread. I forgot about looking in the trunk for the tow hook reinforcement welded in front of the car.
As for the "RS" on the cam covers, I am not sure what this really means. Maybe it was an easy way to identify engines installed in an RSA with the right hand camshaft modified to delete the power steering drive. The engine in an RSA is identified as a type M64/01 as a normal Carrera 2 and is otherwise identical except for this camshaft modification.
The Euro RS/Cup engine is a type M64/03 with selected pistons and cylinders and a single fan belt drive as well as the special right side camshaft as in the RSA.
If the engine in an RSA with "RS" written on the chain housing is really a Euro RS/Cup M64/03 but with the fan drive of an M64/01 engine, I think it would have M64/03 clearly stamped on the engine block above the right side chain housing forward of the engine serial number as in photo below. I believe this number is stamped at the time the short block assembled, and the pistons and cylinders selected for the short block assembly are the critical difference between the M64/01 and M64/03.
12-08-2003, 04:56 PM
#14
Addict
Lead Rennlist
Technical Advisor
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Lead Rennlist
Technical Advisor
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Dear Cupcar,
I do not believe that the seam welding or the putty is sufficient evidence. How do you still prove that this was done at the factory. The putty requirement will be found on any welding job done by Porsche as a repair. I have this putty on my 964 where it got thwacked and fixed. If any shop follows the Porsche crash repair program this putty will be used.
My point being that finding a seam welded RSA does not mean it left the factory this way. It certainly does not prove that it is an ex Carrera RS body assembly.
To me the only way to prove this point that has been bandied around for years is to be able to actually match the bodies.
The Carrera RS has a unique part number. The chassis number should also be the same. There is also the body number.
If you can match these numbers to a RSA then I think you have proved your case.
If you let me have the numbers off your Cup Car I can get the same numbers of a genuine Carrera RS and see what matches. That might help in your quest.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
I do not believe that the seam welding or the putty is sufficient evidence. How do you still prove that this was done at the factory. The putty requirement will be found on any welding job done by Porsche as a repair. I have this putty on my 964 where it got thwacked and fixed. If any shop follows the Porsche crash repair program this putty will be used.
My point being that finding a seam welded RSA does not mean it left the factory this way. It certainly does not prove that it is an ex Carrera RS body assembly.
To me the only way to prove this point that has been bandied around for years is to be able to actually match the bodies.
The Carrera RS has a unique part number. The chassis number should also be the same. There is also the body number.
If you can match these numbers to a RSA then I think you have proved your case.
If you let me have the numbers off your Cup Car I can get the same numbers of a genuine Carrera RS and see what matches. That might help in your quest.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
12-08-2003, 05:10 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
I think Adrian has a good point because my car apparently had significant front end damage (quoted by the seller as minor and not mentioned on the pre-purchase inspection). That I thougt might be seam welding is probably repair welding. I am at work now, but will post my entire VIN when I get home if this helps?
Although my car left my mechanic and has gone to the detailer,my mechanic said it is unlikely that mine is seam welded (although that seems to be the urban legand at my track) because the race prepped cars were done at ???Visok??? Sorry I'm not more help, but a new (proud) owner and have been very busy today, so did not get the whole story. Maybe Adrian can shed some light on which cars came out of ??Visok?? and that process...unless it is in the book, then I should know soon.
Thanks, and someone let me know exactly what I should be looking for if I had front end damage.
Forklift
Although my car left my mechanic and has gone to the detailer,my mechanic said it is unlikely that mine is seam welded (although that seems to be the urban legand at my track) because the race prepped cars were done at ???Visok??? Sorry I'm not more help, but a new (proud) owner and have been very busy today, so did not get the whole story. Maybe Adrian can shed some light on which cars came out of ??Visok?? and that process...unless it is in the book, then I should know soon.
Thanks, and someone let me know exactly what I should be looking for if I had front end damage.
Forklift