'87 Turbo needs new shocks
07-20-2017, 06:05 PM
#16
Quit Smokin'
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If your eccentric adjusters are at their lowest setting and you want to go lower, then yes, you need to reindex. I have my rear helper springs set to engage right at static ride height.... as in, you could take the rear springs off and the ride height would't change at all.
07-20-2017, 06:07 PM
#17
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Reasonable explanation, and they're probably a bit much for a bone stock car. Can't comment on the shock valving, but I have more spring on my street car....and an EX wife 
My comments re the Bilstein setup on Craiglist being unsuitable was for the OP who is of a mind set characterised by "I'm not convinced I want to lower my car as it's otherwise bone stock". And there is nothing wrong with that approach.
I'm pretty familiar with the Bilstein Motorsport set up (sometimes referred to as Escort or Firehawk) and have run it for the last 3 years on a road going 944 S2 with original Porsche Motorsport turbo Cup springs which are 160/400lb progressive fronts (approx 300 rears).
My shocks were rebuilt and specified by Bilstien specifically for my application and I was fortunate to have access to Joerg Hofffman who is the head of Bilstein Motorsport Europe and was closely involved with the original Turbo Cup programme. He recommended 380/150 for the front and advised 600/190 to be unsuitable for road use. Also chatted to Dave Lindsey who has a similar set up on his road car and he described 600/190 valving as "track only stiff". I do know that some guys run 600/190 on the road but I was happy to go with the recommendation from Joerg and Dave.
The set up on Craiglist has the 600/190 valving and spring rates that are pretty close to those used by the original factory race cars ...
I love the set up I have for fast road/DE use but in my opinion it is a pretty extreme set up for the road ... my wife hates it
My thought was that the OP didn't want to stray to far from stock so my recommendation is that he would be best to use his existing front struts and convert to Bilstein B6 Sport or Koni sport and run with stock or 200/250 Weltmeister springs. That is also a very nice compliant wife friendly solution
I'm pretty familiar with the Bilstein Motorsport set up (sometimes referred to as Escort or Firehawk) and have run it for the last 3 years on a road going 944 S2 with original Porsche Motorsport turbo Cup springs which are 160/400lb progressive fronts (approx 300 rears).
My shocks were rebuilt and specified by Bilstien specifically for my application and I was fortunate to have access to Joerg Hofffman who is the head of Bilstein Motorsport Europe and was closely involved with the original Turbo Cup programme. He recommended 380/150 for the front and advised 600/190 to be unsuitable for road use. Also chatted to Dave Lindsey who has a similar set up on his road car and he described 600/190 valving as "track only stiff". I do know that some guys run 600/190 on the road but I was happy to go with the recommendation from Joerg and Dave.
The set up on Craiglist has the 600/190 valving and spring rates that are pretty close to those used by the original factory race cars ...
I love the set up I have for fast road/DE use but in my opinion it is a pretty extreme set up for the road ... my wife hates it
My thought was that the OP didn't want to stray to far from stock so my recommendation is that he would be best to use his existing front struts and convert to Bilstein B6 Sport or Koni sport and run with stock or 200/250 Weltmeister springs. That is also a very nice compliant wife friendly solution
07-20-2017, 06:18 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
My understanding is that the difference between 600/190 and 380/150 valving is significant.
07-21-2017, 08:15 AM
#19
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Want a great car, I feel give me a great suspension over HP any day. I have an MO30 sport suspension in my car, and it is awesome. At a Porsche GTG in PA. the parts guys went wild when they saw what I have. Yes I do have HP too, but I rely on my suspension to do what it is intended to do. I have fully adjustable front Koni's and rear Koni coilovers that are adjustable too. The rears have three settings and is a bit of a pain to do. There are plenty of shocks out there, pick the ones that suits YOUR driving habits.
Good luck
Good luck
07-21-2017, 12:38 PM
#20
Racer
Thread Starter
Here are pics of front and rear shocks. All are school bus yellow so I assume Koni's. Front perches are not adjustable and as far as I can tell the sway bars are not adjustable either. Front bar OD is 31mm and rear bar OD is 18mm. You can see the right front shock is leaking. Can get my front shocks rebuilt, not sure if that is the best way to go so looking for advice. The rear shocks are not leaking and I don't mind replacing them but is there a way to tell if they are OK to continue to use? I'm also replacing the tie rod end and steering rack boots as they are torn - is there anything I should or should not do while it's a part?
Thanks to all who have offered help.
Michael
Thanks to all who have offered help.
Michael
07-21-2017, 02:18 PM
#21
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As with most expensive mods, it was worth it....
To the OP, those *look like M454 koni sport option dampers. The rears appear to be sealed with a cad plated bump striker plate, which none of mine are.. all my older konis have a threaded cap that can be taken apart. The rear parts are nothing special, and can be replaced with off the shelf koni sports available many places, including direct from Koni. The fronts, if they are M454 parts, can be rebuilt. The koni website has two preferred vendors listed, the one in Ohio blows to deal with. Jason may be able to rebuild them too?
To the OP, those *look like M454 koni sport option dampers. The rears appear to be sealed with a cad plated bump striker plate, which none of mine are.. all my older konis have a threaded cap that can be taken apart. The rear parts are nothing special, and can be replaced with off the shelf koni sports available many places, including direct from Koni. The fronts, if they are M454 parts, can be rebuilt. The koni website has two preferred vendors listed, the one in Ohio blows to deal with. Jason may be able to rebuild them too?
07-25-2017, 12:48 PM
#22
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I think you mean M474. M454 is either V8 conversion cars or cruise control....hehe!
Yup, you can either send those front struts off to a certified Koni rebuilder or install the cut-a-strut Koni 8641-1414 Sport units. We can do it for you too if you don't want to do it yourself.
Yup, you can either send those front struts off to a certified Koni rebuilder or install the cut-a-strut Koni 8641-1414 Sport units. We can do it for you too if you don't want to do it yourself.
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Parts | Tech-Session | Facebook | Youtube
Jason Burkett
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Tech Session - Porsche Tech & Info*- 361.289.8834
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07-25-2017, 01:33 PM
#23
Race Car
Send 'em to Paragon. They can have these converted to double adjustable.
This was a nice option (474 sport suspension) that your car came with, do it justice.
If you have plans on doing ride height adjustable in the future, they can get that done too.
Don't quote me on price but for around $350-400 each, you can have a double adjustable front coilover setup with ride height adjustment in the front and rear (via torsion bar).
Throw some 30mm t-bars in the back with new Koni yellows and match the front with 400# springs on your newly converted shocks and you have a killer street/DE setup.
Whichever way you go, don't hacksaw these up.
If you are going with the Koni sport insert, get some Sachs donors to do that with.
Not sure about now but these are/were worth $100-150 each just for the core BECAUSE they can be converted to comp/rebound adjustable.
T
This was a nice option (474 sport suspension) that your car came with, do it justice.
If you have plans on doing ride height adjustable in the future, they can get that done too.
Don't quote me on price but for around $350-400 each, you can have a double adjustable front coilover setup with ride height adjustment in the front and rear (via torsion bar).
Throw some 30mm t-bars in the back with new Koni yellows and match the front with 400# springs on your newly converted shocks and you have a killer street/DE setup.
Whichever way you go, don't hacksaw these up.
If you are going with the Koni sport insert, get some Sachs donors to do that with.
Not sure about now but these are/were worth $100-150 each just for the core BECAUSE they can be converted to comp/rebound adjustable.
T
07-25-2017, 03:52 PM
#24
Race Car
400 / 375 plus tbar will be firm on the street, but it's not end of the world, and it's certainly NOT stiff enough for racing. The setup looks clean, if you could get our for $1500 it would probably be a good deal.
As a side note... I would never want to run a rear shock in place of a torsion bar if it has those rubber bushings like the the ones in the Craigslist ad. That's a dead give away that it's not your main spring for the car
T
07-25-2017, 04:15 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
They are in any event sold.
For the OP the best options would seem to be have them rebuilt by one of Koni sercice agents https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Locator/ or send to Jason for a Koni Sport conversion. Rebuild option is approx $155.00 + parts per shock. Parts typically run 50-60 dollars each. Includes sandblast and repaint of strut body and new Koni stickers
... but when I used Proparts it took about 5 weeks before they got onto the job.
07-25-2017, 05:04 PM
#26
Race Car
Yes ... the rates on those Craiglist Bilsteins were in my view best suited to race. Very close to the Turbo Car factory race car rates and valving and also the same as the 944 S2 that won the NZ Pirelli Porsche Championship ...
They are in any event sold.
For the OP the best options would seem to be have them rebuilt by one of Koni sercice agents https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Locator/ or send to Jason for a Koni Sport conversion. Rebuild option is approx $155.00 + parts per shock. Parts typically run 50-60 dollars each. Includes sandblast and repaint of strut body and new Koni stickers ... but when I used Proparts it took about 5 weeks before they got onto the job.
They are in any event sold.
For the OP the best options would seem to be have them rebuilt by one of Koni sercice agents https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Locator/ or send to Jason for a Koni Sport conversion. Rebuild option is approx $155.00 + parts per shock. Parts typically run 50-60 dollars each. Includes sandblast and repaint of strut body and new Koni stickers
... but when I used Proparts it took about 5 weeks before they got onto the job.I don't believe in this. Race tires are too stiff, especially at 40+ psi hot.
I've been around and around with people here and at tracks all over the SE.
They all come over and ask us what we're doing, I give them some tips, they leave and stick to their guns because XXX told them XXX....and they stay 1,/2 a lap down at checkers.
The suspension has TO WORK.
It takes 2000 lbs down pressure to push the nose of their cars down 1 inch, 4000 lbs for 2 inches travel. The tire sidewall ends up absorbing 75% of roll and weight transfer.
With SP1,2 and especially 3, the car weights have come way down (except 944TS and 968)
Even if you are running 3000# stock weight these rates are too high.
I know a lot of people here are gonna come in and call me on it but I run 1/2 those posted spring rates.
My cars, my son at the wheel is a top 3 driver in a 944NA in all of N America.
He just beat the N.A. national PCA points leader a couple months ago at Road Atlanta.
{EDIT} For anybody going run to Rennpoints to check me out, PM me on the side as to why official results show P2
On any given day, I'll put him up in one of our cars against anybody at any of the tracks we travel to at any time.
NOLA PCA race in September, bring 'em on down. He'll be driving the one with the soft suspension....
Be ready to beat the track record and bring a few sandwiches....
T
07-25-2017, 08:46 PM
#28
Race Car
LOL, you've never been to Louisiana then...? Was just reading an article with a slide show that had Louisiana last. When they built NOLA Motorsports Park, they had to drive hundreds of telephone pole-like pilings because the whole place is built on reclaimed swamp. The "levees" that failed in New Orleans after Katrina were mainly sheet piling driven into unstable peat, thousands year old rotting tree/plant matter.
To the left of those woods in my avatar (Circuit Grand Bayou) a couple of air miles away is the big sink hole that might have made national news.
Guess I'm used to it, New York City seems worse to me. When the work day is over, road crews drag 4x8 sheets of steel plate over damage that would swallow your whole car and just open the lanes back up...
T
07-25-2017, 10:11 PM
#29
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input. If a rebuild is available, I would rather have my struts rebuilt than mod to install the Koni sports as I'm a little OCD about keeping my car stock and will replace the rears with Koni sport or whatever Koni recommends to match the front. Not crazy about a long wait but it's too hot in Phoenix to work on it now anyway. I'll update after talking with Koni.
Thanks - Michael
Thanks - Michael
07-25-2017, 11:23 PM
#30
Quit Smokin'
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big difference between a 2600 lbs NA race car and 3000 lbs tank. 300# effective rate is barely enough to adequately control the rear squat on a car with more than 150 ft lbs of torque. My turbo race car with those spec race rates is waaaaaay too soft at 2699 lbs. It's soft behind the wheel, and it's soft enough that other competitors say it looks too soft. You guys with mega soft cars sometimes forget that once you blow through the travel, the bump stop has a nearly infinite rate. Anyway, I do tier 1 ride and handling for a living.... if you like your car soft, by all means, if it works that's good. A soft car is certainly easier to drive, especially for a driver with slow hands. I like my NA rally car on stock springs, and my co driver wants it stiffer. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.