Does your TEC TO4E burn oil?
11-20-2003, 02:18 AM
#46
Drifting
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 2,163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I plan to dino my car ASAP (which might be well into January). It would be interesting to see how mine will stack up against OZ's - with the 1st larger pistons etc...
Increased blow-by should cause more air to be pushed through the crankcase and out the breather... Wheather it carries oil with it, that is a different story.
On my '79 924 for sale (has turbo kit on it), I took the turbo's compressor plumming off and connected the intake like stock, but left the turbo's hotside still connected. I revved the engine and soon enough, oil started flying out the compressor outlet (the turbo was smoking while on the engine). But in this case, the turbo was worn, and a breather would have done nothing to help the smoking problem. If the Garrett turbos ARE indeed effected by excessive oil pressures, I'm not sure if they would act similar to the one on the '79.
LOL Not sure how that relates, but it was kinda fun so I'd thought I'd share.
Increased blow-by should cause more air to be pushed through the crankcase and out the breather... Wheather it carries oil with it, that is a different story.
On my '79 924 for sale (has turbo kit on it), I took the turbo's compressor plumming off and connected the intake like stock, but left the turbo's hotside still connected. I revved the engine and soon enough, oil started flying out the compressor outlet (the turbo was smoking while on the engine). But in this case, the turbo was worn, and a breather would have done nothing to help the smoking problem. If the Garrett turbos ARE indeed effected by excessive oil pressures, I'm not sure if they would act similar to the one on the '79.
LOL Not sure how that relates, but it was kinda fun so I'd thought I'd share.
11-20-2003, 03:27 AM
#47
Instructor
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: denver
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a TEC turbo TO4E, 46 trim. I live in Denver so TEC was one of the only turbo companies I considered because I could drive there and talk with them about what I wanted . I have no problems with smoking, I am not using a restrictor. I run 20W-50 mobil 1. I have the standard bearing with 360deg thrust. I am very happy with the turbo. I am still dialing in the A/F mixture and gradually adding boost. Once I get everything set I will take it to the dyno and post the results. I will say that this turbo blows away the stock K26/6.
john
john
11-20-2003, 02:40 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
I know this might be OT, but is there a significant difference between TEC and a new Turbonetics with respect to blowing oil or which gets more benefit from using a restrictor?? Other have commented previously that a new build turbonectics with new seals are very unlikely to smoke.
11-20-2003, 05:43 PM
#49
Drifting
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 2,163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was wondering the same. I would assume they are the same in terms of the oil problem
(or possibly the lack there of). Some of the companies I talked to said the KKK and Garrett hybrids don't hold up as well as true KKKs or true Garretts. Not sure...
(or possibly the lack there of). Some of the companies I talked to said the KKK and Garrett hybrids don't hold up as well as true KKKs or true Garretts. Not sure...
11-23-2003, 11:31 AM
#50
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also live near Denver and have the same T04E-46 with standard 360deg thrust bearing from TEC. And oil consumption is about the same as with my old K27/6. Abot 1 qt/400 miles in "normal" street driving; not really normal, but fairly hard. On the track, about 1/3qt every 20min session. And no leaks or visible smoke, even on the track, but the intercooler pipes and throttle body are very oily. And this is with 20W-50 synthetic oil and an auxiliary oil cooler.
I tried a catch can for a while to test the blowby theory, and very little oil was collected. But the dipstick blew out on the track, so I became wary of blown cam seals and connected the crankcase vent back to the turbo inlet.
Next time at the track, I'm going to try the oil cap vent suggested by David Salama, with the vent hose still connected as stock.
TEC recommended against a restrictor in the oil feed line line, and told me my problem was piston rings. Possibly, but my catch can experiment seemed to indicate little blowby. But, I don't doubt there is a connection between high crankcase pressures above say 10psi boost, and oil blowing through the turbo seals.
My car dyno'd at 310rwhp @16psi boost with reconditioned stock injectors, 3 bar fpr, an early APE MAF/K27 chips, and a test pipe. Plenty of fuel for this turbo on a mostly stock engine at this altitude.
I tried a catch can for a while to test the blowby theory, and very little oil was collected. But the dipstick blew out on the track, so I became wary of blown cam seals and connected the crankcase vent back to the turbo inlet.
Next time at the track, I'm going to try the oil cap vent suggested by David Salama, with the vent hose still connected as stock.
TEC recommended against a restrictor in the oil feed line line, and told me my problem was piston rings. Possibly, but my catch can experiment seemed to indicate little blowby. But, I don't doubt there is a connection between high crankcase pressures above say 10psi boost, and oil blowing through the turbo seals.
My car dyno'd at 310rwhp @16psi boost with reconditioned stock injectors, 3 bar fpr, an early APE MAF/K27 chips, and a test pipe. Plenty of fuel for this turbo on a mostly stock engine at this altitude.
11-23-2003, 11:40 AM
#51
Garyk, since you had both can you elaborate on the K-27 vs TEC turbo. It looks like I am going to replace my turbo "while I am in there." Just wondering how you feel between the two turbos. I would have figured with MAF, bigger turbo, etc. you might make a little more power than that. (not that 310 isnt great). Is it altitude adjusted?
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
11-23-2003, 11:50 AM
#52
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Melbourne, Florida
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Matt,
GaryK gave a little comparision in this thread. I also think his boost pressures are gauge pressures so this would be equal to a couple pounds less at sea-level.
GaryK gave a little comparision in this thread. I also think his boost pressures are gauge pressures so this would be equal to a couple pounds less at sea-level.
11-23-2003, 12:14 PM
#53
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, the dyno figures were adjusted for altitude, and the charts shown on Dynopro's site are not the latest. I fixed leaky intercooler boots and turbo intake hose and subsequently registered 308 rwhp and 326rwtq. And it was 16psig, so about 13psi at sea level. I am still running a rebuilt/shimmed stock wastegate and Boostsciences mbc, so other than the turbo and MAF, the engine is fairly stock.
(Btw, the smaller alternator from an early 944 makes the fitment from the MAF pipe to the 3" turbo intake a lot easier.)
Compared to the K27/6, my T04E-46 actually spools quicker, and, at least subjectively, pulls much stronger on boost. I never did dyno the car with the K27 though.
(Btw, the smaller alternator from an early 944 makes the fitment from the MAF pipe to the 3" turbo intake a lot easier.)
Compared to the K27/6, my T04E-46 actually spools quicker, and, at least subjectively, pulls much stronger on boost. I never did dyno the car with the K27 though.
11-23-2003, 12:37 PM
#54
Rennlist Junkie Forever
The only place crank case pressure could affect the turbo would be the oil seperator-to-motor mount.
This line is plumbed into the motor mount, below the turbo.
Adding a filter to the top of the oil cap solves nothing.
In fact, when you are under vacuum, you are sucking in some unmetered air through the oil filler cap filter, through the crank case air/oil seperator to the turbo inlet. (and probably under boost as well)
TonyG
This line is plumbed into the motor mount, below the turbo.
Adding a filter to the top of the oil cap solves nothing.
In fact, when you are under vacuum, you are sucking in some unmetered air through the oil filler cap filter, through the crank case air/oil seperator to the turbo inlet. (and probably under boost as well)
TonyG
11-23-2003, 01:59 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
I beg to differ, but a sump pump type flapper check valve (~3psi) in place of the oil filler cap would not allow crank case pressures (and hence back pressure on the turbo drain) to get high enouugh to cause drainage problems. THe filter really does nothing much and you can run without it as the valve will close if air is drawn into the filler vent. Works great for me and freatly reduced some of my 'bost' induced oil leaks..
11-23-2003, 02:47 PM
#56
Rennlist Junkie Forever
B951S
Your assuming that there is no pressure differential between the oil filler cap opening, the oil breather opening, and the oil return opening... under pressure.
Your also assuming that it requires more than 3 psi for the crank case pressure to go through a 3/4" hose, to the turbo inlet. It does not. Also, the turbo will create quite a bit of suction on the port leading to the hose that is connected to the crank case breather. (you quoted a 3 psi check valve).
A much better way to deal with excessive crank case pressure is to run 2 vents out of the top of the valve cover, back to the factory crank case breather line. Drill out the 2 of the aluminum hex plugs to accepet a 90 degree, barbed NPT fitting. Then run the lines from these, to a "T" fitting in the line from the oil seperator, to the turbo inlet.
This relieves crank case pressure from multipe points within the engine, rather than one.
Question: So how much oil residue are you getting through the air filter? Is the air filter element black, and moist? Do you have oil residue all over it?
PS> The check valve obviously negates the possibility of sucking in unmetered air. Which fixes that issue :-)
TonyG
Your assuming that there is no pressure differential between the oil filler cap opening, the oil breather opening, and the oil return opening... under pressure.
Your also assuming that it requires more than 3 psi for the crank case pressure to go through a 3/4" hose, to the turbo inlet. It does not. Also, the turbo will create quite a bit of suction on the port leading to the hose that is connected to the crank case breather. (you quoted a 3 psi check valve).
A much better way to deal with excessive crank case pressure is to run 2 vents out of the top of the valve cover, back to the factory crank case breather line. Drill out the 2 of the aluminum hex plugs to accepet a 90 degree, barbed NPT fitting. Then run the lines from these, to a "T" fitting in the line from the oil seperator, to the turbo inlet.
This relieves crank case pressure from multipe points within the engine, rather than one.
Question: So how much oil residue are you getting through the air filter? Is the air filter element black, and moist? Do you have oil residue all over it?
PS> The check valve obviously negates the possibility of sucking in unmetered air. Which fixes that issue :-)
TonyG
11-23-2003, 04:14 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Well the area aound the filler vent valve is pretty dry. I think this system helps considerably. If you take off the turbo breather line and blow down it to check the operation of the vent, it pops if blown. Compare that with no filler vent, the crankcase (entire crankcase) pressure up like a big accumulator and blows air back at you after blowing into it. Granted, there will be some complex interactions between various parts of the crankcase under pressure but the overall principal is valid.
Also, the 3psi deal is simply my estimate of what it takes to crack my vent valve and is of no bearing on the 'design' of the system apart from need a realtively low pressure / high volume relief. Whatever it takes to blow crankcase pressure into the turbo inlet is whatever it takes.
I don't think turbo suction really has nothing to do with this 3psi number at all. The bottom line is if the suction created by the vent line to the turbo inlet is enough to keep the crancase pressure in check, maybe slightly positive but not by a lot, the vent stays closed and everything is happy. Its when the crankase pressure plus (or minus as the case may be) the suction of the turbo still result in positive crankcase pressure over ~3psi that the vent will pop open helping to relieve the pressure on the return side of the oiling system which is fundamentally what you are trying to achieve
I think of it like this.....The turbo drains into a common return system (the crankcase pan). blowby increases the pressure differential between the oil supply and return because it acts on crankcase. Vent this pressure (however you do it, either through the oil filler, cam housing, etc) and your good to go. Many ways to skin a cat.....My way (actually Dave Salama's trick) is not very elegant but it sure works.
Also, the 3psi deal is simply my estimate of what it takes to crack my vent valve and is of no bearing on the 'design' of the system apart from need a realtively low pressure / high volume relief. Whatever it takes to blow crankcase pressure into the turbo inlet is whatever it takes.
I don't think turbo suction really has nothing to do with this 3psi number at all. The bottom line is if the suction created by the vent line to the turbo inlet is enough to keep the crancase pressure in check, maybe slightly positive but not by a lot, the vent stays closed and everything is happy. Its when the crankase pressure plus (or minus as the case may be) the suction of the turbo still result in positive crankcase pressure over ~3psi that the vent will pop open helping to relieve the pressure on the return side of the oiling system which is fundamentally what you are trying to achieve
I think of it like this.....The turbo drains into a common return system (the crankcase pan). blowby increases the pressure differential between the oil supply and return because it acts on crankcase. Vent this pressure (however you do it, either through the oil filler, cam housing, etc) and your good to go. Many ways to skin a cat.....My way (actually Dave Salama's trick) is not very elegant but it sure works.
11-23-2003, 04:47 PM
#58
Rennlist Junkie Forever
>>>Well the area aound the filler vent valve is pretty dry. I think this system helps considerably. <<<
That makes no sense. Blowby is oily. If your system was doing anything, you would see oil residue. Take off the factory breather, and you'll see an oil residue in there for sure.
>>>...Compare that with no filler vent, the crankcase (entire crankcase) pressure up like a big accumulator and blows air back at you after blowing into it. <<<
That is correct, and that's the way it's supposed to be on a stock car.
Where exactly did you think the pressure you "blew in" would go?"
>>>Granted, there will be some complex interactions between various parts of the crankcase under pressure but the overall principal is valid.<<<
Not really....
The port just before the compressor blade will produce quite a bit of vacuum. The fact that your setup does not interfere with that, is good, but, and as indicated by the fact that your filter is dry and not oily, it's not doing much if anything at all.
The crank case pressure will only really build up, when you are under boost, and when you are under boost, your turbo is pulling in air at an increadible rate... more than enough to create a pull on the factory breather at the top of the air/oil seperator.
In fact, if you look at the top of your air/oil seperator, you will see a restrictor in there. Did you ever stop to think why this was there?
>>>...blowby increases the pressure differential between the oil supply and return because it acts on crankcase.<<<
True I guess... but it's really nothing to do with blowby increasing the pressure differential. There will always be a HUGE pressure differential because the engine pumps in oil from 30psi to 100psi..
Pressure in the crank case, in the design of the 951, results in a pressure at the bottom of the turbo because of the line from the oil return to the motor mount. That's the only part that see pressure. The oil drain has no pressure becasue the bottom of the banjo bold of the drain, is well under the surfact of the oil level in the pan.
The best way to eliminate any of problems, by far, would be to redirect this line (from motor mount to the oil seperator) to the oil pan directly so no pressure would be seen at the bottom of the turbo.
Perhaps a larger banjo bolt could be fitted to the oil pan, with a custom line made up to run from the banjo bolt to the oil seperator.
>>>Vent this pressure (however you do it, either through the oil filler, cam housing, etc) and your good to go. <<<
Agreed.
TonyG
That makes no sense. Blowby is oily. If your system was doing anything, you would see oil residue. Take off the factory breather, and you'll see an oil residue in there for sure.
>>>...Compare that with no filler vent, the crankcase (entire crankcase) pressure up like a big accumulator and blows air back at you after blowing into it. <<<
That is correct, and that's the way it's supposed to be on a stock car.
Where exactly did you think the pressure you "blew in" would go?"
>>>Granted, there will be some complex interactions between various parts of the crankcase under pressure but the overall principal is valid.<<<
Not really....
The port just before the compressor blade will produce quite a bit of vacuum. The fact that your setup does not interfere with that, is good, but, and as indicated by the fact that your filter is dry and not oily, it's not doing much if anything at all.
The crank case pressure will only really build up, when you are under boost, and when you are under boost, your turbo is pulling in air at an increadible rate... more than enough to create a pull on the factory breather at the top of the air/oil seperator.
In fact, if you look at the top of your air/oil seperator, you will see a restrictor in there. Did you ever stop to think why this was there?
>>>...blowby increases the pressure differential between the oil supply and return because it acts on crankcase.<<<
True I guess... but it's really nothing to do with blowby increasing the pressure differential. There will always be a HUGE pressure differential because the engine pumps in oil from 30psi to 100psi..
Pressure in the crank case, in the design of the 951, results in a pressure at the bottom of the turbo because of the line from the oil return to the motor mount. That's the only part that see pressure. The oil drain has no pressure becasue the bottom of the banjo bold of the drain, is well under the surfact of the oil level in the pan.
The best way to eliminate any of problems, by far, would be to redirect this line (from motor mount to the oil seperator) to the oil pan directly so no pressure would be seen at the bottom of the turbo.
Perhaps a larger banjo bolt could be fitted to the oil pan, with a custom line made up to run from the banjo bolt to the oil seperator.
>>>Vent this pressure (however you do it, either through the oil filler, cam housing, etc) and your good to go. <<<
Agreed.
TonyG
11-23-2003, 08:40 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Originally posted by TonyG
[B
Pressure in the crank case, in the design of the 951, results in a pressure at the bottom of the turbo because of the line from the oil return to the motor mount. That's the only part that see pressure. The oil drain has no pressure becasue the bottom of the banjo bold of the drain, is well under the surfact of the oil level in the pan.
The best way to eliminate any of problems, by far, would be to redirect this line (from motor mount to the oil seperator) to the oil pan directly so no pressure would be seen at the bottom of the turbo.
[/B]
[B
Pressure in the crank case, in the design of the 951, results in a pressure at the bottom of the turbo because of the line from the oil return to the motor mount. That's the only part that see pressure. The oil drain has no pressure becasue the bottom of the banjo bold of the drain, is well under the surfact of the oil level in the pan.
The best way to eliminate any of problems, by far, would be to redirect this line (from motor mount to the oil seperator) to the oil pan directly so no pressure would be seen at the bottom of the turbo.
[/B]