M Tune and E85
08-08-2016, 08:15 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
400 rwhp with e85 on 80lb injectors... I doubt that. I mean... yeah i doubt it. 80lb injectors will get your 400hp at the crank with 100% duty cycle. And you don't run injectors at 100% duty cycle. (which mean always open) For 400RWHP, you need at least 100lb injectors @ 90% duty cycle. which is still high. You'll be playing it save at 110-120lb injectors for that power.
I'd like to bring it up to 24 psi and take it to the dyno, but then run it around 18-19lbs afterwards, because I can break the 275s on the rear loose rolling onto boost in 3rd gear. Once we get the numbers, then we can argue that the Dynos in the northern hemisphere run differently
.
08-08-2016, 11:49 AM
#17
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Well, doubt it or not, I am still not running lean at 21 psi with a 67mm compressor, slightly bumped compression, ported/polished head and a Vitesse camshaft.
I'd like to bring it up to 24 psi and take it to the dyno, but then run it around 18-19lbs afterwards, because I can break the 275s on the rear loose rolling onto boost in 3rd gear. Once we get the numbers, then we can argue that the Dynos in the northern hemisphere run differently.
I'd like to bring it up to 24 psi and take it to the dyno, but then run it around 18-19lbs afterwards, because I can break the 275s on the rear loose rolling onto boost in 3rd gear. Once we get the numbers, then we can argue that the Dynos in the northern hemisphere run differently
.If the injectors cannot physically supply enough fuel to make X amount of power, then it's impossible.
I maxed the 80lb injectors in e85. i couldn't pass 5k rpm on 18psi. it would lean out and just cut out like a fuel cut limiter.
I lower the boost to 12 psi then make my 6800 redline.
And there's no way that was 400rwhp.
I had an overboost spike with the ebc on the wrong setting and hit 22psi on e85. broke traction on semi slick tyres in 2nd. they weren't up to temp but they were not cold either. I immediately hit fuel cut. But in saying that, breaking traction is how quick you can build that torque up, not your max hp.
08-08-2016, 12:17 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
I find it hard to believe, because maths & physics.
If the injectors cannot physically supply enough fuel to make X amount of power, then it's impossible.
I maxed the 80lb injectors in e85. i couldn't pass 5k rpm on 18psi. it would lean out and just cut out like a fuel cut limiter.
I lower the boost to 12 psi then make my 6800 redline.
And there's no way that was 400rwhp.
I had an overboost spike with the ebc on the wrong setting and hit 22psi on e85. broke traction on semi slick tyres in 2nd. they weren't up to temp but they were not cold either. I immediately hit fuel cut. But in saying that, breaking traction is how quick you can build that torque up, not your max hp.
If the injectors cannot physically supply enough fuel to make X amount of power, then it's impossible.
I maxed the 80lb injectors in e85. i couldn't pass 5k rpm on 18psi. it would lean out and just cut out like a fuel cut limiter.
I lower the boost to 12 psi then make my 6800 redline.
And there's no way that was 400rwhp.
I had an overboost spike with the ebc on the wrong setting and hit 22psi on e85. broke traction on semi slick tyres in 2nd. they weren't up to temp but they were not cold either. I immediately hit fuel cut. But in saying that, breaking traction is how quick you can build that torque up, not your max hp.
There are several dyno sheets with a Super 75 turbo making 400whp+ running over 20psi on pump gas, and as stated, my car didnt run lean or misfire at high boost on E85. Again, I've never dyno'ed the car, but I will say the car was totally rebuilt, heavily modified, and is running exceptionally well ( as is your car ).
Obviously something doesn't add up here, what would you say is happening? Maybe your car would have read well over 400 whp on our dynos? Or our cars would read far lower down there?
08-08-2016, 01:02 PM
#19
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I'm a big fan of the maths and physics because I was an engineering major in college... and I agree that it's always nice to have rhyme and reason mapped out for you by science on any given subject.
There are several dyno sheets with a Super 75 turbo making 400whp+ running over 20psi on pump gas, and as stated, my car didnt run lean or misfire at high boost on E85. Again, I've never dyno'ed the car, but I will say the car was totally rebuilt, heavily modified, and is running exceptionally well ( as is your car ).
Obviously something doesn't add up here, what would you say is happening? Maybe your car would have read well over 400 whp on our dynos? Or our cars would read far lower down there?
There are several dyno sheets with a Super 75 turbo making 400whp+ running over 20psi on pump gas, and as stated, my car didnt run lean or misfire at high boost on E85. Again, I've never dyno'ed the car, but I will say the car was totally rebuilt, heavily modified, and is running exceptionally well ( as is your car ).
Obviously something doesn't add up here, what would you say is happening? Maybe your car would have read well over 400 whp on our dynos? Or our cars would read far lower down there?
All in all, dynos are initially tuning tools. and how it's been operated by the operator.
What i always look at is equivalent mods to cars.
But i always come back to Patricks (333pg333) car.
His old 2.5L set up was very similar to mine. from the turbo, to the head and cam.
He made 380rwhp on 24psi on e85. That was a gt3076r, which is known to make 450-480rwhp no problem and 500 being the limit.
You can look at LR 400rwho dyno chart, at 4psi less they have 30hp more. Where their car has more bottle necks with having a more restrictive KKK rear housing vs a GT/TiAL rear housing.
He also pointed out using his car as a demonstration (can't find the post) that changing ramp rates on the dyno can increase your hp number.
I will still always go back to numbers.
Even if you're not reaching 400rwhp, it's not a bad thing. Maybe you have 400 as a goal. so i suppose any higher reading dyno that will tell you you have 400rwhp, it'll make you happy, but you hit another dyno and it tells you you've only got 350, which one do you believe? obviously something won't add up.
But you have 2 consistent data points you can view. Air flow (maf) and fuel flow (injector size + duty cycle)
Unfortunately, there's no voltage vs airflow look up table for the M-tune to get your airflow.
But it's the same with reading airflow. If your engine is sucking in 400lb/min then you should have estimated + - 400hp at the crank.
Same as a turbo compressor map, You can't make more power than the compressor can suck. if someone tells me they're making 550rwhp on a gt3076r i will call bull**** on it, because the turbo cannot physically flow enough air to make the power.
08-08-2016, 05:53 PM
#20
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I don`t know about other cars with 80lb injectors but my car with 83lb injectors ran 26psi but never above 4,3k rpm were the boost was lowered to about 20 at redline. Boostmap on piggyback with intentional bostspike to 26psi lasting a few hundred rpm .
This was due to the injectors not delivering enough juice above 5500 rpm @22 psi. remember this is with 12lb extra fuel injector delivery and a BIG fuelpump . was it 400rwhp i dont think so
This was due to the injectors not delivering enough juice above 5500 rpm @22 psi. remember this is with 12lb extra fuel injector delivery and a BIG fuelpump . was it 400rwhp i dont think so
08-08-2016, 06:04 PM
#21
Which Super 75 are you running #10 hotside or T4? Just curious.
I am running a M tune, E85, and a Super 75 Turbo on 80lb injectors. The only fuel supply mod I have is a fuel pump from a Mercedes W116 450SEL/6.9 with K Jetronic fuel injection... It flows 25%-30% more fuel. There arent too many options in Northern NJ so I go to Newark Airport for my E85, since its only a few miles away.
I was worried about running lean due to fuel supply, so I started at 15 psi and gradually worked up to 21 psi in 1 psi increments while closely watching my AFRs ( I also chose to install a new WB O2 sensor while I was swapping in the turbo for piece of mind ).
I have to give credit where its due...Whether I had a K27/8 at 16 psi or a Super 75 at 21 psi, my AFRs never crept over 12.0-12.5 on deep pulls in 4th gear. And with a Super 75, it pulls really hard. Most of Lindsey's Dynos show approximately 400whp, so its safe to say you'll be able to handle at least that much before going with larger injectors.
Does anyone else have the annoying issue of a 1500 rpm hot idle with the M tune on E85? When I'm on the 93 octane fuel map, it idles around 1050-1100...
Also, why would anyone want a flexfuel sensor? Just run the tank until its almost dry, and fill the tank with E85. Allow it to idle, and within a minute you should see your AFRs creep up from 14:1 to 18:1. When that happens, you hit the E85 toggle switch and the idle goes back to normal. I normally run 2-3 full tanks of E85 and then 1 tank of 93 octane, just to the tank and fuel lines healthy.
I was worried about running lean due to fuel supply, so I started at 15 psi and gradually worked up to 21 psi in 1 psi increments while closely watching my AFRs ( I also chose to install a new WB O2 sensor while I was swapping in the turbo for piece of mind ).
I have to give credit where its due...Whether I had a K27/8 at 16 psi or a Super 75 at 21 psi, my AFRs never crept over 12.0-12.5 on deep pulls in 4th gear. And with a Super 75, it pulls really hard. Most of Lindsey's Dynos show approximately 400whp, so its safe to say you'll be able to handle at least that much before going with larger injectors.
Does anyone else have the annoying issue of a 1500 rpm hot idle with the M tune on E85? When I'm on the 93 octane fuel map, it idles around 1050-1100...
Also, why would anyone want a flexfuel sensor? Just run the tank until its almost dry, and fill the tank with E85. Allow it to idle, and within a minute you should see your AFRs creep up from 14:1 to 18:1. When that happens, you hit the E85 toggle switch and the idle goes back to normal. I normally run 2-3 full tanks of E85 and then 1 tank of 93 octane, just to the tank and fuel lines healthy.
08-08-2016, 06:35 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
It could be a myth, that our dynos read lower than yours.
All in all, dynos are initially tuning tools. and how it's been operated by the operator.
What i always look at is equivalent mods to cars.
But i always come back to Patricks (333pg333) car.
His old 2.5L set up was very similar to mine. from the turbo, to the head and cam.
He made 380rwhp on 24psi on e85. That was a gt3076r, which is known to make 450-480rwhp no problem and 500 being the limit.
You can look at LR 400rwho dyno chart, at 4psi less they have 30hp more. Where their car has more bottle necks with having a more restrictive KKK rear housing vs a GT/TiAL rear housing.
He also pointed out using his car as a demonstration (can't find the post) that changing ramp rates on the dyno can increase your hp number.
I will still always go back to numbers.
Even if you're not reaching 400rwhp, it's not a bad thing. Maybe you have 400 as a goal. so i suppose any higher reading dyno that will tell you you have 400rwhp, it'll make you happy, but you hit another dyno and it tells you you've only got 350, which one do you believe? obviously something won't add up.
But you have 2 consistent data points you can view. Air flow (maf) and fuel flow (injector size + duty cycle)
Unfortunately, there's no voltage vs airflow look up table for the M-tune to get your airflow.
But it's the same with reading airflow. If your engine is sucking in 400lb/min then you should have estimated + - 400hp at the crank.
Same as a turbo compressor map, You can't make more power than the compressor can suck. if someone tells me they're making 550rwhp on a gt3076r i will call bull**** on it, because the turbo cannot physically flow enough air to make the power.
All in all, dynos are initially tuning tools. and how it's been operated by the operator.
What i always look at is equivalent mods to cars.
But i always come back to Patricks (333pg333) car.
His old 2.5L set up was very similar to mine. from the turbo, to the head and cam.
He made 380rwhp on 24psi on e85. That was a gt3076r, which is known to make 450-480rwhp no problem and 500 being the limit.
You can look at LR 400rwho dyno chart, at 4psi less they have 30hp more. Where their car has more bottle necks with having a more restrictive KKK rear housing vs a GT/TiAL rear housing.
He also pointed out using his car as a demonstration (can't find the post) that changing ramp rates on the dyno can increase your hp number.
I will still always go back to numbers.
Even if you're not reaching 400rwhp, it's not a bad thing. Maybe you have 400 as a goal. so i suppose any higher reading dyno that will tell you you have 400rwhp, it'll make you happy, but you hit another dyno and it tells you you've only got 350, which one do you believe? obviously something won't add up.
But you have 2 consistent data points you can view. Air flow (maf) and fuel flow (injector size + duty cycle)
Unfortunately, there's no voltage vs airflow look up table for the M-tune to get your airflow.
But it's the same with reading airflow. If your engine is sucking in 400lb/min then you should have estimated + - 400hp at the crank.
Same as a turbo compressor map, You can't make more power than the compressor can suck. if someone tells me they're making 550rwhp on a gt3076r i will call bull**** on it, because the turbo cannot physically flow enough air to make the power.
Im not chasing huge numbers on the dyno, I just installed that turbo because I had it laying around unused in the shop for years and I was getting bored with the K27/8. I'm not crazy about the insane lag, maybe I'll swap it out for a quick spooling turbo like the one you have. My 951 is already terrible for auto X ( and will never be faster than the prepped 3.6l 986 I've been Autoxing for years ) , so I'll just use it for DE events and open track days.
Also, theres going to be a dyno event locally that I am going to and I know of a stock S2000 that just put down 210hp to the wheels. I'll post my dyno sheet assuming other peoples numbers look honest. I'm expecting to have my heart broken
I am running the #10 hotside. You can get 3-4 psi at full load at 3200rpm, and full boost at about 4000 rpm. Its very laggy in town, and it usually requires a downshift to 4th if youre cruising at 65 mph to get moving. I dont drive over 25-30mph in town anyway, and the M-tune makes the car feel very responsive off boost. But as soon as you get the car going on an empty highway, it goes through 3rd and 4th gear in a very satisfying fashion.
08-08-2016, 07:45 PM
#23
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All good points, seems like its impossible to make 400whp on 80lb injectors. Without actually going on the dyno, all I can really say that the injectors support E85 with a Super 75 turbo at 21 psi, and that I am far from 400whp.
Im not chasing huge numbers on the dyno, I just installed that turbo because I had it laying around unused in the shop for years and I was getting bored with the K27/8. I'm not crazy about the insane lag, maybe I'll swap it out for a quick spooling turbo like the one you have. My 951 is already terrible for auto X ( and will never be faster than the prepped 3.6l 986 I've been Autoxing for years ) , so I'll just use it for DE events and open track days.
Also, theres going to be a dyno event locally that I am going to and I know of a stock S2000 that just put down 210hp to the wheels. I'll post my dyno sheet assuming other peoples numbers look honest. I'm expecting to have my heart broken
I am running the #10 hotside. You can get 3-4 psi at full load at 3200rpm, and full boost at about 4000 rpm. Its very laggy in town, and it usually requires a downshift to 4th if youre cruising at 65 mph to get moving. I dont drive over 25-30mph in town anyway, and the M-tune makes the car feel very responsive off boost. But as soon as you get the car going on an empty highway, it goes through 3rd and 4th gear in a very satisfying fashion.
Im not chasing huge numbers on the dyno, I just installed that turbo because I had it laying around unused in the shop for years and I was getting bored with the K27/8. I'm not crazy about the insane lag, maybe I'll swap it out for a quick spooling turbo like the one you have. My 951 is already terrible for auto X ( and will never be faster than the prepped 3.6l 986 I've been Autoxing for years ) , so I'll just use it for DE events and open track days.
Also, theres going to be a dyno event locally that I am going to and I know of a stock S2000 that just put down 210hp to the wheels. I'll post my dyno sheet assuming other peoples numbers look honest. I'm expecting to have my heart broken
I am running the #10 hotside. You can get 3-4 psi at full load at 3200rpm, and full boost at about 4000 rpm. Its very laggy in town, and it usually requires a downshift to 4th if youre cruising at 65 mph to get moving. I dont drive over 25-30mph in town anyway, and the M-tune makes the car feel very responsive off boost. But as soon as you get the car going on an empty highway, it goes through 3rd and 4th gear in a very satisfying fashion.
To tell you the truth, I rather have a lower reading number than a higher one. I wouldn't go head over heels for a number.
Dude that's laggy. I start spooling up at 2k rpm. with both a .82 and a .63
Full boost was ~3500 and 3800 for the .82
I wouldn't use my turbo for auto X unless you have a shorter gear ratio. A gtx3071r would be ideal. Terry ( i forget his user name) runs one, and we've shared some numbers and boy i can tell you, his car sounds very responsive. and he will have no problem with 400rwhp.
08-09-2016, 04:51 AM
#24
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That's going back some Pauly, but iirc I had 83lb injs back then and the dyno pulled about 350whp. He 'manipulated' it to put down a 380whp but the car didn't suddenly grow 30whp. Ramp rates and where you put one of the sensors.
It was an n/a block with stock turbo internals and stock head running the GT30 with a larger cam. So definitely didn't have a modded head like yours. Running 23psi.
It was an n/a block with stock turbo internals and stock head running the GT30 with a larger cam. So definitely didn't have a modded head like yours. Running 23psi.
08-09-2016, 08:10 AM
#25
Three Wheelin'
To tell you the truth, I rather have a lower reading number than a higher one. I wouldn't go head over heels for a number. Dude that's laggy. I start spooling up at 2k rpm. with both a .82 and a .63 Full boost was ~3500 and 3800 for the .82 I wouldn't use my turbo for auto X unless you have a shorter gear ratio. A gtx3071r would be ideal. Terry ( i forget his user name) runs one, and we've shared some numbers and boy i can tell you, his car sounds very responsive. and he will have no problem with 400rwhp.
The only reasons I began AutoX'ing my 951 was to give it a shake down before I took it to the circuit, and because I put a connecting rod through the block of my 3.4 Boxster. Its so much easier to get a boxster through a slalom than it is a 951....
08-09-2016, 09:14 AM
#26
The Super 75 with T4 in a 3.0L is not really laggy with my setup. Especially with the New LR M-tune. I've found sitting in traffic and getting higher intercooler temps to be more significant to how acceleration feels.
I'm curious if one could have an HTA super 75 built ???? Similar to the on GeorgeD has from Tial.
I'm curious if one could have an HTA super 75 built ???? Similar to the on GeorgeD has from Tial.
Yea, it is laggy to be honest, but its really fun once the power comes on. Here in the states, I can not see the 951 becoming a competitive AutoX car due to the classing system of the SCCA, which doesnt want Porsche to win in any class ( well, maybe F prepared...but not in a 951). The moment you do anything with the gear ratios or turbo, you are up against monster Mazda FD RX7's and Lotus Exiges in SSM.
The only reasons I began AutoX'ing my 951 was to give it a shake down before I took it to the circuit, and because I put a connecting rod through the block of my 3.4 Boxster. Its so much easier to get a boxster through a slalom than it is a 951....
The only reasons I began AutoX'ing my 951 was to give it a shake down before I took it to the circuit, and because I put a connecting rod through the block of my 3.4 Boxster. Its so much easier to get a boxster through a slalom than it is a 951....
08-09-2016, 10:21 AM
#27
Three Wheelin'
The Super 75 with T4 in a 3.0L is not really laggy with my setup. Especially with the New LR M-tune. I've found sitting in traffic and getting higher intercooler temps to be more significant to how acceleration feels.
I'm curious if one could have an HTA super 75 built ???? Similar to the on GeorgeD has from Tial.
I'm curious if one could have an HTA super 75 built ???? Similar to the on GeorgeD has from Tial.
08-09-2016, 10:54 AM
#28
I think about 3700-3800 for full boost. Still sucks you back in your seat even about 3000RPM. Can't do a test run right now I'm replacing the rod bearings with the Michael Mount mods. Should hopefully have the motor out this weekend. Motor is fine just figured I would do the mod.
When do you see full boost with the 3.0? I'd never accelerate hard after sitting in traffic or when its very hot mid day in the summer, heat soak is a major killer. After each autoX run, I take my water sprayer ( with ice ) and spray the intercooler and radiator until they cool off substantially... when you check the coolant temps, you can actually see the temp needle bouncing down.
08-09-2016, 05:08 PM
#29
I was chatting with one of the engineers at my work about the injector/hp questions you guys were contemplating.
As an example he ran a car fuel injector in a completely unintended purpose to spray chemicals using 48Volts...way beyond the spec for the particular injector. It opened and closed at 48Volts and worked for their application.
If the injectors you have are say rated for 80lbs one can exceed the spec by altering fuel pump, higher voltage, higher fuel pressure, line losses etc.
Where you think you are maxing out at 80lbs you could be running at a higher output......maybe they could actually spit out 100........I'm just throwing out a number.
Anyway not sure if this has been taken into account on with the topic.
Something to consider.
I always think of my 98 ZX9R and friends with the same bike plus my friends two R1 track bikes.
Even though his 2 R1's were identical stock, same with my Ninja and friends exact same stock bikes. Some bikes were just faster than others on the track or in a straight line even though they were the same. It was the same result with all riders. We were all fast on the same bike and slower on the same.
Just some thoughts
As an example he ran a car fuel injector in a completely unintended purpose to spray chemicals using 48Volts...way beyond the spec for the particular injector. It opened and closed at 48Volts and worked for their application.
If the injectors you have are say rated for 80lbs one can exceed the spec by altering fuel pump, higher voltage, higher fuel pressure, line losses etc.
Where you think you are maxing out at 80lbs you could be running at a higher output......maybe they could actually spit out 100........I'm just throwing out a number.
Anyway not sure if this has been taken into account on with the topic.
Something to consider.
I always think of my 98 ZX9R and friends with the same bike plus my friends two R1 track bikes.
Even though his 2 R1's were identical stock, same with my Ninja and friends exact same stock bikes. Some bikes were just faster than others on the track or in a straight line even though they were the same. It was the same result with all riders. We were all fast on the same bike and slower on the same.
Just some thoughts
It could be a myth, that our dynos read lower than yours.
All in all, dynos are initially tuning tools. and how it's been operated by the operator.
What i always look at is equivalent mods to cars.
But i always come back to Patricks (333pg333) car.
His old 2.5L set up was very similar to mine. from the turbo, to the head and cam.
He made 380rwhp on 24psi on e85. That was a gt3076r, which is known to make 450-480rwhp no problem and 500 being the limit.
You can look at LR 400rwho dyno chart, at 4psi less they have 30hp more. Where their car has more bottle necks with having a more restrictive KKK rear housing vs a GT/TiAL rear housing.
He also pointed out using his car as a demonstration (can't find the post) that changing ramp rates on the dyno can increase your hp number.
I will still always go back to numbers.
Even if you're not reaching 400rwhp, it's not a bad thing. Maybe you have 400 as a goal. so i suppose any higher reading dyno that will tell you you have 400rwhp, it'll make you happy, but you hit another dyno and it tells you you've only got 350, which one do you believe? obviously something won't add up.
But you have 2 consistent data points you can view. Air flow (maf) and fuel flow (injector size + duty cycle)
Unfortunately, there's no voltage vs airflow look up table for the M-tune to get your airflow.
But it's the same with reading airflow. If your engine is sucking in 400lb/min then you should have estimated + - 400hp at the crank.
Same as a turbo compressor map, You can't make more power than the compressor can suck. if someone tells me they're making 550rwhp on a gt3076r i will call bull**** on it, because the turbo cannot physically flow enough air to make the power.
All in all, dynos are initially tuning tools. and how it's been operated by the operator.
What i always look at is equivalent mods to cars.
But i always come back to Patricks (333pg333) car.
His old 2.5L set up was very similar to mine. from the turbo, to the head and cam.
He made 380rwhp on 24psi on e85. That was a gt3076r, which is known to make 450-480rwhp no problem and 500 being the limit.
You can look at LR 400rwho dyno chart, at 4psi less they have 30hp more. Where their car has more bottle necks with having a more restrictive KKK rear housing vs a GT/TiAL rear housing.
He also pointed out using his car as a demonstration (can't find the post) that changing ramp rates on the dyno can increase your hp number.
I will still always go back to numbers.
Even if you're not reaching 400rwhp, it's not a bad thing. Maybe you have 400 as a goal. so i suppose any higher reading dyno that will tell you you have 400rwhp, it'll make you happy, but you hit another dyno and it tells you you've only got 350, which one do you believe? obviously something won't add up.
But you have 2 consistent data points you can view. Air flow (maf) and fuel flow (injector size + duty cycle)
Unfortunately, there's no voltage vs airflow look up table for the M-tune to get your airflow.
But it's the same with reading airflow. If your engine is sucking in 400lb/min then you should have estimated + - 400hp at the crank.
Same as a turbo compressor map, You can't make more power than the compressor can suck. if someone tells me they're making 550rwhp on a gt3076r i will call bull**** on it, because the turbo cannot physically flow enough air to make the power.
08-29-2016, 10:20 PM
#30
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Well I'm up and running on my first tank of E85, I ended up going with an 044 fuel pump and a toggle switch to change maps. I've raised the boost from 16 to 18 psi and it's running great, the performance is much improved and the car is running WAY cooler too. The M tune e85 map works very well.