Oil Pan Gasket and Rod Bearing Replacement Build Thread
06-23-2016, 06:59 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Oil Pan Gasket and Rod Bearing Replacement Build Thread
Hi everyone,
I'm about to embark on the oil pan gasket replacement and rod bearing renewal so this will be a thread about that and any questions I may have or any helpful info that others might benefit from. I also will be doing the timing belts, a Arnnworxx throttle body reseal and misc other things that need attention along the way.
First, a little background: It's an 86 Turbo with 170k miles on it which has lived in CA for it's entire life. I've owned it for almost 20 years, buying it with 55k on it. Engine is stock except for weltmeister chips, wastegate shim, LBE with boost set at about 15 psi. It also has a B&B cat back exhaust. It runs great but the years have taken their toll on the plastic connectors, hoses, seals, etc. under the hood. I tracked the car a couple of times about 15 years ago but then ran out of extra money to play with but maybe someday, we will return to the track for some fun.
Oh, and I just drove the car from LA where I live to my parents house in Nashville, 2000+ miles in a day and a half with full Bilstein Escort suspension. The car ran great and I had no problems which was a relief as I definitely had my doubts. Anyone else contemplating a cross country run in their 951, I would heartily recommend to do it. It was a great trip and it's sad how few car enthusiasts actually use their cars in this way. In all of 2000 miles, I saw only two Porsches and both were on a car transporter! Sad, sad, sad....
Anyways, a couple of pre breakdown questions:
1) The plastigauge dilemma: yes or no? Why or why not?
2) And any brand of rod bearing to avoid or insist on? Is Glyco good? I found them for $53 at autohaus AZ which is much cheaper than anywhere else....Also, some bearings have a 928 part number and some have a 944; I know the 928 uses the same bearings but is there a difference between the different part numbers?
3) Are the metal O ring gaskets in the exhaust and wastegate pipes reusable or should I just assume they will all be junk after 170k?
4) Will the later 968 plastic oil pan baffle fit in an 86 pan? Does this baffle fix the problem of oil starvation? Do 968's have rod bearing issues also or
did Porsche fix the problem?
5) Ive replaced my water pump within the last 5 years so does that mean that it will use the newer 46mm pulley? And which timing/balance belt bearings and tensioners should I replace without question and which should I wait and see?
Ok, that should get this thread started. Many thanks to anyone providing info as I am a little bit worried about the difficulties to come...
I'm about to embark on the oil pan gasket replacement and rod bearing renewal so this will be a thread about that and any questions I may have or any helpful info that others might benefit from. I also will be doing the timing belts, a Arnnworxx throttle body reseal and misc other things that need attention along the way.
First, a little background: It's an 86 Turbo with 170k miles on it which has lived in CA for it's entire life. I've owned it for almost 20 years, buying it with 55k on it. Engine is stock except for weltmeister chips, wastegate shim, LBE with boost set at about 15 psi. It also has a B&B cat back exhaust. It runs great but the years have taken their toll on the plastic connectors, hoses, seals, etc. under the hood. I tracked the car a couple of times about 15 years ago but then ran out of extra money to play with but maybe someday, we will return to the track for some fun.
Oh, and I just drove the car from LA where I live to my parents house in Nashville, 2000+ miles in a day and a half with full Bilstein Escort suspension. The car ran great and I had no problems which was a relief as I definitely had my doubts. Anyone else contemplating a cross country run in their 951, I would heartily recommend to do it. It was a great trip and it's sad how few car enthusiasts actually use their cars in this way. In all of 2000 miles, I saw only two Porsches and both were on a car transporter! Sad, sad, sad....
Anyways, a couple of pre breakdown questions:
1) The plastigauge dilemma: yes or no? Why or why not?
2) And any brand of rod bearing to avoid or insist on? Is Glyco good? I found them for $53 at autohaus AZ which is much cheaper than anywhere else....Also, some bearings have a 928 part number and some have a 944; I know the 928 uses the same bearings but is there a difference between the different part numbers?
3) Are the metal O ring gaskets in the exhaust and wastegate pipes reusable or should I just assume they will all be junk after 170k?
4) Will the later 968 plastic oil pan baffle fit in an 86 pan? Does this baffle fix the problem of oil starvation? Do 968's have rod bearing issues also or
did Porsche fix the problem?
5) Ive replaced my water pump within the last 5 years so does that mean that it will use the newer 46mm pulley? And which timing/balance belt bearings and tensioners should I replace without question and which should I wait and see?
Ok, that should get this thread started. Many thanks to anyone providing info as I am a little bit worried about the difficulties to come...
06-23-2016, 07:28 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Oil Pan Gasket and Rod Bearing Replacement Build Thread
I used plastigage. The specs are available in the WSM, it's mostly for peace of mind IMO. It's quick.
06-23-2016, 07:34 PM
#4
1. Ive never done it, though you could if you wanted to. Your really looking at the wear pattern on the existing bearings to tell you if the big ends on your rods are out of round. The cranks wear very very well and short of bearing failure, don't present major issues from what I've seen.
2. Its glyco/porsche OEM (also glyco) or you pull the rods to have Michael Mounts Rod mod done. The shop he refered too in his thread machines your rods to take a Clevite bearing.
3. Can't answer this one unfortunately. If they are like the 16V and NA ones, they can, but the turbo may be a different story.
4. The baffle bolts into the pan, so you need a late (87+) 2.5 pan with those bosses, not sure if the 86 had those, IIRC the 3.0 pan has slightly shorter scraper teeth cast into the ban and the baffle to clear the extra stroke. My 88 944S had the baffle from the factory and a semi polished surface on the inside. My 968 pans did not replicate this finish. 968's can have the #2 rod bearing go just like the rest, they share the same defect in the oil passage design as the rest of the 2.5/3.0L engine family, suffer the same oil pickup tube cracking failures and have the same oil pump that starts cavitating around 7200rpm.
5. You'll need to pull the cover and measure to be sure. I would probably replace all of the rollers, but the one that has failed the most for me is the one on the Timing belt tensioner arm. This one sees a lot of stress and usually goes first in my experience. Pay attention to how the current one is mounted in respect to the flange on this pulley, its easy to mount it backwards and then you get to take it all apart again.
2. Its glyco/porsche OEM (also glyco) or you pull the rods to have Michael Mounts Rod mod done. The shop he refered too in his thread machines your rods to take a Clevite bearing.
3. Can't answer this one unfortunately. If they are like the 16V and NA ones, they can, but the turbo may be a different story.
4. The baffle bolts into the pan, so you need a late (87+) 2.5 pan with those bosses, not sure if the 86 had those, IIRC the 3.0 pan has slightly shorter scraper teeth cast into the ban and the baffle to clear the extra stroke. My 88 944S had the baffle from the factory and a semi polished surface on the inside. My 968 pans did not replicate this finish. 968's can have the #2 rod bearing go just like the rest, they share the same defect in the oil passage design as the rest of the 2.5/3.0L engine family, suffer the same oil pickup tube cracking failures and have the same oil pump that starts cavitating around 7200rpm.
5. You'll need to pull the cover and measure to be sure. I would probably replace all of the rollers, but the one that has failed the most for me is the one on the Timing belt tensioner arm. This one sees a lot of stress and usually goes first in my experience. Pay attention to how the current one is mounted in respect to the flange on this pulley, its easy to mount it backwards and then you get to take it all apart again.
06-24-2016, 12:09 AM
#5
Three Wheelin'
3) I think it's likely you'll have to destroy at least some of the 3 rings in the crossover pipe. For me, some of them came out easily, some took a lot of heat and being hit with a chisel. If you don't mind waiting for parts in the middle of the job, you could chance it. I'd rather buy new ones than take the chance of being delayed - but that's just me.
For the wastegate pipe, I don't think I replaced the seal, but then I don't think my WG connects the same way as yours so I'm not much help there. If your exhaust is wider than stock, you'll probably have to drop it down from the downpipe to get the oil pan off. You might want to look into how that's sealed (it might not be the same as the stock setup)
For the wastegate pipe, I don't think I replaced the seal, but then I don't think my WG connects the same way as yours so I'm not much help there. If your exhaust is wider than stock, you'll probably have to drop it down from the downpipe to get the oil pan off. You might want to look into how that's sealed (it might not be the same as the stock setup)
06-24-2016, 03:14 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
3) I think it's likely you'll have to destroy at least some of the 3 rings in the crossover pipe. For me, some of them came out easily, some took a lot of heat and being hit with a chisel. If you don't mind waiting for parts in the middle of the job, you could chance it. I'd rather buy new ones than take the chance of being delayed - but that's just me.
For the wastegate pipe, I don't think I replaced the seal, but then I don't think my WG connects the same way as yours so I'm not much help there. If your exhaust is wider than stock, you'll probably have to drop it down from the downpipe to get the oil pan off. You might want to look into how that's sealed (it might not be the same as the stock setup)
For the wastegate pipe, I don't think I replaced the seal, but then I don't think my WG connects the same way as yours so I'm not much help there. If your exhaust is wider than stock, you'll probably have to drop it down from the downpipe to get the oil pan off. You might want to look into how that's sealed (it might not be the same as the stock setup)
I figure that most of the sealing rings will be in need of renewal but just thought I'd get some idea of what to expect. As for ordering the parts, I think I'm going to wait until it's apart as I'm sure there will be unforeseen parts that I will need once I'm in there. And I have other tasks to keep me busy while I wait for the parts such as the throttle body seals, sway bar brackets, painting the wheels, etc. etc.
As for the rod bearings, many places (Lindsey, autohausaz) have different bearings. For example, Lindsey has Glyco for $75 and the OEM for $55 but you guys say OEM is the same as Glyco so why the price difference? And why doesn't anyone make an alternative to the soft Glycos to fit the stock rods? I'm far from the Michael Mount mod as I'm only replacing the oil pan gasket so I'm not going to remove the engine and crank. Hopefully I won't have to do that for many years to come!
And regarding the oil pan baffle, correct me if I'm wrong but all the 951's have a baffle but then Porsche updated the baffle for the 968. I've read that the later baffle will bolt in but there may or may not be clearance issues which can be adapted to fit. Anyone have any further detail to add or confirm this?
Ok, and some pics of the beast. It's not pretty (thanks to LA street parking and about 8 collisions while PARKED) but I still love it.
On the drive to Nashville, somewhere finally in Tennessee with a windshield full of bugs:
Dirty car after 28 hours of driving, home in time to watch Porsche win Le Mans!
The 951 enjoying a garage for the first time that I know of:
Where I'll be spending most of my time, sweating like crazy in the TN humidity, for the next month or so:
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06-27-2016, 05:23 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
Dont cheap out on the crush rings i have tried this 2 times and ended up redoing the crossover both times "fun job" .
06-28-2016, 01:57 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
I have the copper gaskets at the 2-1 on the crossover, the downpipe/exhaust cat section, and cat/cat back sections. I had leaks with the crush rings and oem gaskets. Sealed up great with the copper gaskets and they're reusable. Just thought I'd chime in on my experience with that option. I have oem at the head/exhaust header (installed the Saturn studs or Rennbay studs on the head, forget which at the moment, along with copper nuts).
06-29-2016, 06:44 AM
#10
Three Wheelin'
1. I would plastigage the rod bearings. Chances are you are fine, but you are right there.
2. Glyco is fine, there are not many choices really unless you do the MM mod, but that requires removing the rods from the engine.
3. I would replace the exhaust gaskets. Never tried the copper type.
4. There was an updated baffle and pan in '87. You might try a dismantler for the newer version. You will need the oil pump pick up tube, and a block off for the oil level sensor.
5. You probably have the updated pump, but if it was a rebuilt unit, maybe or maybe not. If it has the chrome belt guide, it is the updated version. There are variations between the factory and aftermarket pumps, so it is hard to order all the right stuff before you take it apart.
While you are in there, if you have an oily mess on the front of the engine, it may be worthwhile to reseal the oil pump to the block. I have had to do that on a few cars. It is a pain to do, but you are already there!
How are you planning to hold the engine up, sky hook?
2. Glyco is fine, there are not many choices really unless you do the MM mod, but that requires removing the rods from the engine.
3. I would replace the exhaust gaskets. Never tried the copper type.
4. There was an updated baffle and pan in '87. You might try a dismantler for the newer version. You will need the oil pump pick up tube, and a block off for the oil level sensor.
5. You probably have the updated pump, but if it was a rebuilt unit, maybe or maybe not. If it has the chrome belt guide, it is the updated version. There are variations between the factory and aftermarket pumps, so it is hard to order all the right stuff before you take it apart.
While you are in there, if you have an oily mess on the front of the engine, it may be worthwhile to reseal the oil pump to the block. I have had to do that on a few cars. It is a pain to do, but you are already there!
How are you planning to hold the engine up, sky hook?
06-29-2016, 06:42 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
1. I would plastigage the rod bearings. Chances are you are fine, but you are right there.
2. Glyco is fine, there are not many choices really unless you do the MM mod, but that requires removing the rods from the engine.
3. I would replace the exhaust gaskets. Never tried the copper type.
4. There was an updated baffle and pan in '87. You might try a dismantler for the newer version. You will need the oil pump pick up tube, and a block off for the oil level sensor.
5. You probably have the updated pump, but if it was a rebuilt unit, maybe or maybe not. If it has the chrome belt guide, it is the updated version. There are variations between the factory and aftermarket pumps, so it is hard to order all the right stuff before you take it apart.
While you are in there, if you have an oily mess on the front of the engine, it may be worthwhile to reseal the oil pump to the block. I have had to do that on a few cars. It is a pain to do, but you are already there!
How are you planning to hold the engine up, sky hook?
2. Glyco is fine, there are not many choices really unless you do the MM mod, but that requires removing the rods from the engine.
3. I would replace the exhaust gaskets. Never tried the copper type.
4. There was an updated baffle and pan in '87. You might try a dismantler for the newer version. You will need the oil pump pick up tube, and a block off for the oil level sensor.
5. You probably have the updated pump, but if it was a rebuilt unit, maybe or maybe not. If it has the chrome belt guide, it is the updated version. There are variations between the factory and aftermarket pumps, so it is hard to order all the right stuff before you take it apart.
While you are in there, if you have an oily mess on the front of the engine, it may be worthwhile to reseal the oil pump to the block. I have had to do that on a few cars. It is a pain to do, but you are already there!
How are you planning to hold the engine up, sky hook?
I ordered a 1x1" steel tube which I'll build an engine support with. I assume I just have to support the front of the engine, correct?
I just looked inside the timing belt cover and I do have the guide bar. The water pump pulley looks large but it is way bigger than 42mm and there is no nut on the pulley....does that mean it doesn't come off?
Also, the belts seem extremely loose. I know the balance shaft belt runs loose but how about the timing belt? It seems way looser than any timing belt I've ever touched. It goes all the way to the guide bar and the idler so it's hard to tell how loose it is fully. My Arnnworx was ordered last night so hopefully it comes fast.
There's a little oil inside the cover but the belts are clean and dry so I don't think any seals need attention.
And finally cuz I'm lazy, what size is the crankshaft bolt to turn the engine?
Thanks....
06-29-2016, 06:57 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Many thanks...
I ordered a 1x1" steel tube which I'll build an engine support with. I assume I just have to support the front of the engine, correct?
I just looked inside the timing belt cover and I do have the guide bar. The water pump pulley looks large but it is way bigger than 42mm and there is no nut on the pulley....does that mean it doesn't come off?
Also, the belts seem extremely loose. I know the balance shaft belt runs loose but how about the timing belt? It seems way looser than any timing belt I've ever touched. It goes all the way to the guide bar and the idler so it's hard to tell how loose it is fully. My Arnnworx was ordered last night so hopefully it comes fast.
There's a little oil inside the cover but the belts are clean and dry so I don't think any seals need attention.
And finally cuz I'm lazy, what size is the crankshaft bolt to turn the engine?
Thanks....
I ordered a 1x1" steel tube which I'll build an engine support with. I assume I just have to support the front of the engine, correct?
I just looked inside the timing belt cover and I do have the guide bar. The water pump pulley looks large but it is way bigger than 42mm and there is no nut on the pulley....does that mean it doesn't come off?
Also, the belts seem extremely loose. I know the balance shaft belt runs loose but how about the timing belt? It seems way looser than any timing belt I've ever touched. It goes all the way to the guide bar and the idler so it's hard to tell how loose it is fully. My Arnnworx was ordered last night so hopefully it comes fast.
There's a little oil inside the cover but the belts are clean and dry so I don't think any seals need attention.
And finally cuz I'm lazy, what size is the crankshaft bolt to turn the engine?
Thanks....
24mm socket. use a short extension on the ratchet key.
I just did this stuff + piston rings and allot more will put the belts back on tomorrow together with head etc after piston ring job. You may have a leaking balance shaft seal if you find oil behind the belt covers.
06-30-2016, 12:42 AM
#13
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for the 24mm info....
It looks like it could be the crank seal which is leaking slightly; is that a pain to replace? And it seems that each shaft has a seal, O-ring and another seal or flange--do I replace all of these or just the rubber seals and O rings? Are the balance shaft and cam seals easier to replace? I'm just trying to put an order in for the parts I'll need and it's really adding up fast. I'm up to over $300 for belts, rollers, gaskets so that doesn't include oil pan baffle, any seals or exhaust systems bolts/hardware.
How difficult is it to get the crankshaft bolt off?
And what should I do about the oil pan baffle? Do I have to get a newer oil pan? Am I sure to have the wrong oil pan for the later baffle? So there is no chance of it fitting? Can I tell by the engine number? I couldn't find the engine number-is it hidden by the turbo plumbing/heat shield? And where is the part number on the oil pan? Can I see it before disassembly? Or do I just go with the older baffle?
Thanks
It looks like it could be the crank seal which is leaking slightly; is that a pain to replace? And it seems that each shaft has a seal, O-ring and another seal or flange--do I replace all of these or just the rubber seals and O rings? Are the balance shaft and cam seals easier to replace? I'm just trying to put an order in for the parts I'll need and it's really adding up fast. I'm up to over $300 for belts, rollers, gaskets so that doesn't include oil pan baffle, any seals or exhaust systems bolts/hardware.
How difficult is it to get the crankshaft bolt off?
And what should I do about the oil pan baffle? Do I have to get a newer oil pan? Am I sure to have the wrong oil pan for the later baffle? So there is no chance of it fitting? Can I tell by the engine number? I couldn't find the engine number-is it hidden by the turbo plumbing/heat shield? And where is the part number on the oil pan? Can I see it before disassembly? Or do I just go with the older baffle?
Thanks
06-30-2016, 09:36 AM
#14
Each one of these procedures are outlined at http://clarks-garage.com/. Click on the 'garage shop manual', and you're all set. I did this on my engine-out reseal, printed out each 'job' and took that printout to the garage. A tool to help, would be the flywheel lock, then you can remove the crank nut.
07-02-2016, 04:07 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
To change the crank seal, you will need to remove the starter and lock the flywheel.
Clarks Garage is a great resource.
For the oil pan, I am not convinced it is worth the cost to change to the later pan for a street car. But that is just my opinion. You can just do the Lindsey trap door modification to yours if you are concerned about it. The updated factory pans did not solve the #2 rod bearing issue anyway.
Clarks Garage is a great resource.
For the oil pan, I am not convinced it is worth the cost to change to the later pan for a street car. But that is just my opinion. You can just do the Lindsey trap door modification to yours if you are concerned about it. The updated factory pans did not solve the #2 rod bearing issue anyway.
