Additional Oil Cooler
10-06-2003 | 01:00 PM
#31
Rennlist Junkie Forever
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From: Los Angeles
David Salama
Although I'm sure the oil cooler works fine, your problem is your intercooler.
Have you ever measured the pressure drop at WOT across the intercooler on your car?
The water injection won't fix this.
Also concerning your oil temps.... do you have a set of aftermarket gauges? What are your oil temps on the track?
Although I'm sure the oil cooler works fine, your problem is your intercooler.
Have you ever measured the pressure drop at WOT across the intercooler on your car?
The water injection won't fix this.
Also concerning your oil temps.... do you have a set of aftermarket gauges? What are your oil temps on the track?
10-06-2003 | 03:10 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 7
From: Sydney
Ah back after an enjoyable weekend at Summit Point ....
As for this topic, I have the same oil cooler as the KISS setup and it works very well. I like the fact that it does not add any extra heat to the readiator area and also that it can be installed without interfering with anything else. Whilst the unit is small it is very efficient so dont let that put you off. Tony G makes the point that a bigger cooler is warranted at the sustained 375Hp track mark and that comment is undoudbtedly from experience, but not everybody will want to run that kind of HP or need that kind of cooling (or expense).
As for this topic, I have the same oil cooler as the KISS setup and it works very well. I like the fact that it does not add any extra heat to the readiator area and also that it can be installed without interfering with anything else. Whilst the unit is small it is very efficient so dont let that put you off. Tony G makes the point that a bigger cooler is warranted at the sustained 375Hp track mark and that comment is undoudbtedly from experience, but not everybody will want to run that kind of HP or need that kind of cooling (or expense).
10-06-2003 | 09:02 PM
#33
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Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Indian Land, SC
Tony,
I am sure your setup will be awesome and eclipse what the Kiss product will do, but I would contend that 99% of those reading here will not need that capability. On the other hand, I bet alot of DE drivers have experienced droping oil pressures with hard driving and could benefit with the small oil cooler, especially for $300. I unfortunately do not have an oil temp guage, but as the oil temp increased, the viscosity decreases and leads to a lower oil pressure. The stock guage does not give real numbers, but it gives me the information I need.
I agree with you in terms of the intercooler. I would love to find the ideal large intercooler for our cars. I don't like the Lindsey unit in that it looks ugly, and the SFR unit vents into the radiator. I still may end up buying one just to decrease the pressure drop you refer to, however.
I am sure your setup will be awesome and eclipse what the Kiss product will do, but I would contend that 99% of those reading here will not need that capability. On the other hand, I bet alot of DE drivers have experienced droping oil pressures with hard driving and could benefit with the small oil cooler, especially for $300. I unfortunately do not have an oil temp guage, but as the oil temp increased, the viscosity decreases and leads to a lower oil pressure. The stock guage does not give real numbers, but it gives me the information I need.
I agree with you in terms of the intercooler. I would love to find the ideal large intercooler for our cars. I don't like the Lindsey unit in that it looks ugly, and the SFR unit vents into the radiator. I still may end up buying one just to decrease the pressure drop you refer to, however.
10-06-2003 | 09:22 PM
#34
Three Wheelin'
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,657
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From: Sydney
David,
I have not put the car back on the track yet but I have put temp sensors on the oil cooler outlet (prior to return to block - ie after the oil has been through both coolers) and also on the sump, I can switch between the two sensors while I drive. I was very happy to find that the highway driving I have done so far has gotten the sump temperature to about 210 tops while the temp of the oil after the coolers has barely registered on my gauge which has 140F as the lowest reading. So the temp is being reduced by around 60F as advertised. The oil will be hotter at the track of course but the temperature differential will still be similar I expect. I will report back on that in late Oct.
I have not put the car back on the track yet but I have put temp sensors on the oil cooler outlet (prior to return to block - ie after the oil has been through both coolers) and also on the sump, I can switch between the two sensors while I drive. I was very happy to find that the highway driving I have done so far has gotten the sump temperature to about 210 tops while the temp of the oil after the coolers has barely registered on my gauge which has 140F as the lowest reading. So the temp is being reduced by around 60F as advertised. The oil will be hotter at the track of course but the temperature differential will still be similar I expect. I will report back on that in late Oct.
10-06-2003 | 10:02 PM
#35
Pro
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 708
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From: PA
I think I got this Tony G by moving both the rad and condenser you have enough room for the thicker ic core. How would you plumb the rads into the existing system? Don't understand much about ic sizes and pressure drops etc but what if you hooked up two smaller ic's in series or is that useless?
10-06-2003 | 10:09 PM
#36
Racer
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
I've got the KISS cooler as well, and noticed higher oil pressure on the track as a result of it. No, I don't have an oil temp gauge. I think the KISS cooler is a great cost-effective solution for a street/DE car. There is no way I would put an oil cooler in front of the radiator without removing the A/C condensor. My car was dyno'd at 310rwhp at 16psi, which is all I run even on the track. Sure, with more power and/or full race use, I would pull the A/C compressor and condensor, and install a huge front-mounted oil cooler and upgraded intercooler. Otherwise, the KISS cooler is fine.
10-06-2003 | 11:21 PM
#37
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,384
Likes: 1
From: Cleveland, OH
I do like the idea of being able to get rid of the stock oil cooler no matter where the aftermarket unit is mounted. To me, putting a 2nd cooler in series with the stock unit just increases the chances for something to go wrong. I am curious if either the 25212 or the 34212 Mocal units would be big enough as a sole cooler mounted in place of the AC condenser for a mildly modded ~325 rwhp car. Any thoughts.
Also what type of oil temp gauges are everyone using mechanical or electrical.
Also what type of oil temp gauges are everyone using mechanical or electrical.
10-06-2003 | 11:43 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,657
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From: Sydney
Originally posted by Skip Wolfe
To me, putting a 2nd cooler in series with the stock unit just increases the chances for something to go wrong.
Also what type of oil temp gauges are everyone using mechanical or electrical.
To me, putting a 2nd cooler in series with the stock unit just increases the chances for something to go wrong.
Also what type of oil temp gauges are everyone using mechanical or electrical.
I am using an autometer mechanical oil pressure gauge and electric temperature gauge with 2 sensors.
10-06-2003 | 11:55 PM
#39
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From: Tennessee
Originally posted by Skip Wolfe
I do like the idea of being able to get rid of the stock oil cooler no matter where the aftermarket unit is mounted. To me, putting a 2nd cooler in series with the stock unit just increases the chances for something to go wrong. I am curious if either the 25212 or the 34212 Mocal units would be big enough as a sole cooler mounted in place of the AC condenser for a mildly modded ~325 rwhp car. Any thoughts.
Also what type of oil temp gauges are everyone using mechanical or electrical.
I do like the idea of being able to get rid of the stock oil cooler no matter where the aftermarket unit is mounted. To me, putting a 2nd cooler in series with the stock unit just increases the chances for something to go wrong. I am curious if either the 25212 or the 34212 Mocal units would be big enough as a sole cooler mounted in place of the AC condenser for a mildly modded ~325 rwhp car. Any thoughts.
Also what type of oil temp gauges are everyone using mechanical or electrical.
I use the 25212 and removed the stock cooler, mounted in front of the rad and ac condenser as the pic shows on the 1st page of this post.
Mechanical gauge with the temp sender mounted in the turbo drain line large banjo bolt which I expect to be the hottest location.
Have not been to the track with this setup yet but have driven 10k miles and highest oil temp I have seen is 210 and water temp never goes above mid way on stock gauge and stays at 1st line most of the time.
Not the mother of all oil cooler setups as Tony's but does a reasonable job for the money.
I use a stainless screen for some protection from flying road stuff
10-07-2003 | 12:01 AM
#40
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From: Los Angeles
David Floyd
I'm referring to the Mocal 72112, not the Mocal 25212. Big difference.
The Mocal 72112 the largest, and I know people that run on the race track with it as the sole oil cooler, and their reported oil temps never exceed 180F on any ambient temperature day... taken from the sump.
210F is too hot. And if you have 210F on the street, your temps will be much higher on a hot day, on the track.
I'm referring to the Mocal 72112, not the Mocal 25212. Big difference.
The Mocal 72112 the largest, and I know people that run on the race track with it as the sole oil cooler, and their reported oil temps never exceed 180F on any ambient temperature day... taken from the sump.
210F is too hot. And if you have 210F on the street, your temps will be much higher on a hot day, on the track.
10-07-2003 | 12:04 AM
#41
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Originally posted by David Floyd
I use the 25212 and removed the stock cooler, mounted in front of the rad and ac condenser as the pic shows on the 1st page of this post.
Mechanical gauge with the temp sender mounted in the turbo drain line large banjo bolt which I expect to be the hottest location.
Have not been to the track with this setup yet but have driven 10k miles and highest oil temp I have seen is 210 and water temp never goes above mid way on stock gauge and stays at 1st line most of the time.
Not the mother of all oil cooler setups as Tony's but does a reasonable job for the money.
I use a stainless screen for some protection from flying road stuff
I use the 25212 and removed the stock cooler, mounted in front of the rad and ac condenser as the pic shows on the 1st page of this post.
Mechanical gauge with the temp sender mounted in the turbo drain line large banjo bolt which I expect to be the hottest location.
Have not been to the track with this setup yet but have driven 10k miles and highest oil temp I have seen is 210 and water temp never goes above mid way on stock gauge and stays at 1st line most of the time.
Not the mother of all oil cooler setups as Tony's but does a reasonable job for the money.
I use a stainless screen for some protection from flying road stuff
10-07-2003 | 12:08 AM
#42
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Los Angeles
David Salama
Oil temperature, and engine life have a documented inverse relationship.
That said, if you are operating at oil temps of over 200F, you are in fact, decreasing your engine life.
There are some people there that might consider 200F-220F OK. It's not. It's not on the street, and it's not on the track. Keeping the oil temps in check is the key.
Furthermore, the purpose of all of my proposed mods, is to fit a larger intercooler. It's the stock intercooler is the root of all racing evils on a 951, even more so than the stock oil cooler.
Imagine if your turbo system could produce the same pressure to the intake manifold, with the turbo having to put out 6 psi less? That could very easily translate into a 50F reduction in charge air temps.... which translates into a much lower propensity to detonate at any given boost - on any given fuel, more power as a result of the denser intake charge, and less heat soak across the intake system.
So the point here is:
1) install a real, effective intercooling solution
2) install a real oil cooling solution
3) improve the coolant cooling situation.
All 3 things are important. To race and not have problems, all 3 have got to have the temps at an acceptable level (and in the case of the intercooler, the huge pressure drop has got to go... it's killing the 951 performance).
Oil temperature, and engine life have a documented inverse relationship.
That said, if you are operating at oil temps of over 200F, you are in fact, decreasing your engine life.
There are some people there that might consider 200F-220F OK. It's not. It's not on the street, and it's not on the track. Keeping the oil temps in check is the key.
Furthermore, the purpose of all of my proposed mods, is to fit a larger intercooler. It's the stock intercooler is the root of all racing evils on a 951, even more so than the stock oil cooler.
Imagine if your turbo system could produce the same pressure to the intake manifold, with the turbo having to put out 6 psi less? That could very easily translate into a 50F reduction in charge air temps.... which translates into a much lower propensity to detonate at any given boost - on any given fuel, more power as a result of the denser intake charge, and less heat soak across the intake system.
So the point here is:
1) install a real, effective intercooling solution
2) install a real oil cooling solution
3) improve the coolant cooling situation.
All 3 things are important. To race and not have problems, all 3 have got to have the temps at an acceptable level (and in the case of the intercooler, the huge pressure drop has got to go... it's killing the 951 performance).
10-07-2003 | 12:12 AM
#43
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Los Angeles
OZ951 (and all)
The only oil temp that matters is the oil temp in the sump. All the other readings you measure are for all intents and purposes, irrelevant.
The engine's oil pickup is in the sump. That's the oil that gets sucked in. And that's the only temp that matters.
The only oil temp that matters is the oil temp in the sump. All the other readings you measure are for all intents and purposes, irrelevant.
The engine's oil pickup is in the sump. That's the oil that gets sucked in. And that's the only temp that matters.
10-07-2003 | 12:42 AM
#44
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From: Tennessee
Originally posted by TonyG
David Salama
Oil temperature, and engine life have a documented inverse relationship.
That said, if you are operating at oil temps of over 200F, you are in fact, decreasing your engine life.
There are some people there that might consider 200F-220F OK. It's not. It's not on the street, and it's not on the track. Keeping the oil temps in check is the key.
Furthermore, the purpose of all of my proposed mods, is to fit a larger intercooler. It's the stock intercooler is the root of all racing evils on a 951, even more so than the stock oil cooler.
Imagine if your turbo system could produce the same pressure to the intake manifold, with the turbo having to put out 6 psi less? That could very easily translate into a 50F reduction in charge air temps.... which translates into a much lower propensity to detonate at any given boost - on any given fuel, more power as a result of the denser intake charge, and less heat soak across the intake system.
So the point here is:
1) install a real, effective intercooling solution
2) install a real oil cooling solution
3) improve the coolant cooling situation.
All 3 things are important. To race and not have problems, all 3 have got to have the temps at an acceptable level (and in the case of the intercooler, the huge pressure drop has got to go... it's killing the 951 performance).
David Salama
Oil temperature, and engine life have a documented inverse relationship.
That said, if you are operating at oil temps of over 200F, you are in fact, decreasing your engine life.
There are some people there that might consider 200F-220F OK. It's not. It's not on the street, and it's not on the track. Keeping the oil temps in check is the key.
Furthermore, the purpose of all of my proposed mods, is to fit a larger intercooler. It's the stock intercooler is the root of all racing evils on a 951, even more so than the stock oil cooler.
Imagine if your turbo system could produce the same pressure to the intake manifold, with the turbo having to put out 6 psi less? That could very easily translate into a 50F reduction in charge air temps.... which translates into a much lower propensity to detonate at any given boost - on any given fuel, more power as a result of the denser intake charge, and less heat soak across the intake system.
So the point here is:
1) install a real, effective intercooling solution
2) install a real oil cooling solution
3) improve the coolant cooling situation.
All 3 things are important. To race and not have problems, all 3 have got to have the temps at an acceptable level (and in the case of the intercooler, the huge pressure drop has got to go... it's killing the 951 performance).
I agree with you Tony and the setup you are building is something most of us can only dream of owning, right up there with the Milledge intake and such, so the best I can do is try and make some small improvements over stock which I think I have done.