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The data displayed really helps us understand the engine parameters. Are there additional sheets for this run to record knock and other parameters? What is BAP, barometric Air Pressure? How are you controlling the waste gate?
Based on the displayed MAP you were at ~17 PSI. Are you on pump gas or E85? Very interesting the EGT temps. How does the engine water temp respond on a run like this?
How much wiring is required? Or is the wiring harness new?
My purpose for this thread, is to understand alternate ECU results, yours are perfect, and how much skill, wiring and programming, is required.
Knock is controlled by a separate J&S Safeguard which orders the ECU to reduce boost in case of knock, if retarding ignition timing on the cylinder where knock is detected (this a full sequential fuel/ignition configuration) isn't enough. The safety feature works just like the factory DME/KLR with the additional finesse of the sequential fuel + ignition.
Boost is controlled in closed loop with a solenoid, enabling throttle-based boost control to get the adjustability of a NA engine which IMO greatly improves controlling the power delivery of the engine.
The whole set up, including a custom ready-to-fit wiring harness that plugs on all stock sensors, was supplied by Pauertuning, whom I highly recommend. This kind of set up can arguably be reproduced with any other proper brand of modern ECU but it's nice to get a ready-to-fit custom harness, plug it all in and start the engine with a supplied base calibration file, and, last but not least, get full comprehensive support.
Running pump gas. High EGT are a typical feature of the stock 9R cam timed conservatively. That's also why I run the engine slightly rich on full load.
As those using the systems provide input on PnP or functionality, I will try to summarize.
The list of systems to date is: (please cut the existing list into your message with ECU provider additions, list is alphabetical)
Electromotive Tech,
Emtron engine management
Link ECU, Pnp through Pauer tuning
Megasquirt and MSDroid, PnP for 944s
Rogue
TECs
VEMS.hu, PNP for 951, Peep at Raceboy
Vi-PEC, Pnp through Pauer Tuning
Wolf EMS
Another "column" of data you could add to that list is price range for a typical install. Applies more to PnP systems. Things like MoTeC will cost many times more than VEMS for example, which eliminates that option for most people.
To construct a harness out of unterminated wiring loom is not all that hard. I would not go with PNP simply becauase stock engine harness is ~ 30 years old.
I also made a new harness for my install, as well as a standalone relay panel with a main relay, fuel pump relay, ignition coils relay, and fan relay. No regrets, car is a lot more reliable and the DME relay (and it's inconvenient placement on early cars) is out of the equation. Old harness was giving me mystery no-starts.
To construct a harness out of unterminated wiring loom is not all that hard. I would not go with PNP simply becauase stock engine harness is ~ 30 years old.
Haltech setup terminated for 951.
Originally Posted by Raceboy
If 951 engine harness is not butchered, it works well, at least it has been so far. And also many people want to have their mods reversible...
PnP is super nice for those of us who don't really have the free time to do that level of wiring work.
I would rather have wiring/electronic stuff sorted and plug-in, giving me the time to work on the actual hardware of the engine and car.
Eventually I do plan to re-wire the car and ditch the factory body harness...putting the fuse panel in a more accessible place and using modern blade fuses and stuff.
For the engine harness though, I would probably just have a new one built by 928motorsports.
If the car is all original it makes sense to use OE/PNP.
But once it is hacked to death lego car (as mine) it's better to wire it as a part of the project imo.. To me it's worth it only because I get to crimp all the connectors and know everything is crimped and wired perfect. If not, repeat until perfection.
Thank you Voith for the link on the wiring systems. Very informative.
I will look into an additional column for pricing. Pricing will likely have two divides; the ECU cost and the additional systems like; boost control, knock control, wasted spark, individual coil pack, sequential injector control, and much more. Some ECU providers also license the software modules, at additional cost.
Perhaps another useful column would be a list of users and resources for each system. What is clear is that there are many ECUs (I am sure I have not identified all) and to get them usable on our cars is the challenge.
As those using the systems provide input on PnP or functionality, I will try to summarize.
The list of systems to date is: (please cut the existing list into your message with ECU provider additions, list is alphabetical)
EFI Euro
Electromotive Tech,
Emtron engine management
Link ECU, Pnp through Pauer tuning
Megasquirt and MSDroid, PnP for 944s
MoTec
Pectel
Rogue
Syvecs
TECs
VEMS.hu, PNP for 951, Peep at Raceboy
Vi-PEC, Pnp through Pauer Tuning
Wolf EMS
Like many I was initially concerned with the amount of work needed to build a wiring harness, but honestly once you have done enough reading through ECU instructions and figured out how many inputs and outputs are needed it is not that much difficult and compared to the time the average tuning geek may want to spend fine tuning his engine, building the harness represents just one or two afternoons of actual work.
I sincerely believe that anyone who may want to invest in an aftermarket ECU may be motivated enough to read and learn how it all functionally works out (short of deciphering the actual coding, of course), and the possible hassle of building a wiring harness, which may be quite simpler than the stock one, is not really significant.
I would suggest for a start to download the available ECU softwares available for free online and read through the instructions once or five times.
Haltech and Motec have a lot of really useful tech videos posted on youtube. Basically you only wire one circuit at a time and that is only two or three wires terminated with connector. Nothing too complicated. Also its best to do it on the car as wire lenghts are determined by the actual location of needed sensor.
(I'm sure other systems have an equivalent.) The nice thing is that the wires are all labelled every foot or so, and are color coded so it's straightforward.
And just laid it out in a way that made sense to me. It's also nice because you can install new connectors of your choosing...I primarily used newer Bosch minitimer connectors. Same ones as the stock 944 harness, but with a thumb-depress release clip instead of that stupid metal retainer you have to pry off. It took me about 6 hours total of actual work to complete the harness, using solder and heatshrink. Crimping would probably be faster. I agree that if you are going to go through the bother of standalone, a new harness is nice. It can also save you money, since you aren't limited to PnP systems.
I've probably spent 50x more time actually tuning and messing with the settings than I have physically installing it...
Michael brings up a very important part of this discussion, How long to get the new ECU tuned. (I watched your videos and the wiring was time consuming. The early 944s were not as component location friendly. Nice work)
A lot of us are not wanting to build a new wiring harness (for the time involved). But as Michael said, he has 50 times more hours in tuning. I hope that included some exaggeration. As the combined time to install and tune these systems is a limiting factor for me. As I tell my Grand children, "They can do anything they want, but they can not do everything they want, because we do not have the time."
The PnP option holds out the hope of a few hours to install, with a tune I can live with, or tweak. For me, I already know I would like sequential fire for the injectors, wasted spark, boost control (by gear), knock control (and counts), along with the ability to see the logs of my sensors for troubleshooting.
For my car, 300 WHP or close will work, as I have a mostly stock 1986 motor with Albert's T04e hybrid turbo, 3" LR exhaust. I am OK with ~15 PSI, and careful trips out to ~17-18 PSI (with Meth injection).
As those using the systems provide input on PnP or functionality, I will try to summarize.
The list of systems to date is: (please cut the existing list into your message with ECU provider additions, list is alphabetical)
EFI Euro
Electromotive Tech,
Emtron engine management
Link ECU, Pnp through Pauer tuning
Megasquirt and MSDroid, PnP for 944s
MoTec
Pectel
Rogue
Syvecs
TECs
VEMS.hu, PNP for 951, Peep at Raceboy
Vi-PEC, Pnp through Pauer Tuning
Wolf EMS
12-26-2015, 02:04 PM
